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IanG
Australia
72 Posts |
 Posted - 30/06/2017 : 10:10:01
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Olli, Point taken. I was not aware that a knuckle is a car which is obviously why the register are asking more about it. I would have thought at least a chassis was a car, not just knuckles. The chassis that these knuckles are from was bent in the 1950's & bits rescued by my uncle. I was not aware that new knuckles are obtainable which is I agree with you that Frank should persue. So what you are saying that the knuckles sitting in my cupbaord are a J2 in the making.Decision made then that they stay unmolested.
quote:
Originally posted by ollirichardson
So we destroy the identity of another J2( as register rules state the knuckle is the car) , all be it with new side rails . Surely as the knuckles are beyond use on Franks car and evidence is there , the best thing to do is fit new knuckles and re stamp the number ( with /R after for replacement ) and put a covering letter in the register records as to why. Particularly as in the past other cars have not been accepted for being re stamped on original knuckles.seems the register rules change depending on who you are and what you have! Or am am completely wrong?? Oliver
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IanG
Australia
72 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 10:15:38
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See my comment to Olli.I agree it seems a shame to destroy the basis of another car & Frank should get new ones.I am waiting now for the register to identify the number on the knuckle.
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Originally posted by Cathelijne
If I had a say in this, I'd go with Oliver's suggestion of getting some new ones too. It seems absurd to be destroying the identity of another car no matter how well documented!
Even if in agreement with Oliver, I would like to add my hopes that he is wrong in his comment about the Register and that integrity wins ...
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Cathelijne
Netherlands
744 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 11:18:03
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Hear hear  |
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Robin Hamblett
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 14:50:07
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I completely agree. It would be such a shame to wipe out another car's identity, given that reproduction knuckles are available.
J2 J3666 |
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2564 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 14:56:41
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A further vote for Oliver's view!
Dave |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 14:57:50
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I have the original knuckle from J4129 which is knocked about ( probably from trialing ), I would retain this even if I had to obtain a complete new chassis. Luckily the chassis is being restored, it will be ready end of this year, just need then to ship back to the UK ( from Cyprus ) My view..do not destroy heritage that cannot be replaced.
CJD |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3681 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 15:38:12
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This is an interesting thread for many reasons, but it does give the Register the opportunity to remind folk of a few basic points.
First, grinding the number off an existing viable knuckle, re-stamping it and transferring it to another chassis does not of itself create a new identity for that knuckle, nor does the new number stamping re-establish the identity of the chassis that is receiving that knuckle.
After all, X-ray investigation of a ground off number will invariably reveal evidence of the old number!
Furthermore, as this thread has demonstrated, the destruction or defacing of a viable knuckle is, in effect, tantamount to destroying the identity and history of the car from which that knuckle derived. We do not condone that.
As for the suggestion that the Register will approve a new chassis identity based solely around a knuckle with an authentic stamping the answer is "no"! Take a look at our Register Listing guidelines at http://www.triple-mregister.org/registerlogin.asp in which the various criteria for acceptance are clearly laid out.
Here is an extract from the guidelines:
QUOTE
3. TRIPLE-M REGISTER REGISTRATION AND REGISTER NUMBER ALLOCATION
3.1 Guidelines for Register Listing
Definitions.
For the purposes of these Guidelines:
'Original Triple-M chassis' means an original unaltered chassis in the form in which it left the M.G. Works at the time and place of its original manufacture and including its original front dumb iron (knuckle);
'Altered Chassis' means an Original Triple-M chassis that has been either shortened or lengthened;
'Reconstructed Chassis' means a chassis that is based on an Original Triple-M chassis that has had some of its elements replaced with reproduction or non-original parts. e.g. if the side rails or the cross tubes or the castings are replacement parts;
'New Chassis" means a reproduction chassis i.e. a chassis that did not emanate from the M.G. Works;
'Front dumb iron' means the forged steel component at the forward end of a Triple-M chassis which locates the forward eye of the front leaf spring and (where fitted) a chassis cross tube;
'Knuckle' has the same meaning as 'Front dumb-iron';
'Original front knuckle' means the front dumb-iron originally incorporated into the construction of an original Triple-M chassis;
'Original chassis number' means the identifying number of an original Triple-M chassis evidenced by the letter(s) and numerals stamped on an original front knuckle at the time of manufacture. Note: most such numbers will be found on the right hand side (driver's side) knuckle, although certain chassis, including some of those exported from the works are known to have been stamped on the left hand side (passenger's side) knuckle;
'A Triple-M Car', where the context permits means a car built on an original Triple-M chassis which is complete, roadworthy and with its major components or modern replacement components manufactured to original Triple-M specification;
'The Register Listing' has the meaning set out in paragraph 1.1 of this document;
'The M.G. Works' means the factory(ies) of the M.G. Car Company.
The original chassis number as defined in these Guidelines is used by the Register as the car's Primary Identity Indicator. Before a car is included in the Register Listing it must qualify under one of the following criteria:
3.1.1 A car built on an original Triple-M chassis containing an original front knuckle clearly stamped with its original chassis number as defined above will be included in the Register Listing under that number.
3.1.2 A car built on an original Triple-M chassis which has an original dumb-iron (knuckle) but does not clearly show its original chassis number will be listed under chassis number “A ????” where “A” is the model letter designation for the chassis used, unless the original chassis serial number can be established beyond reasonable doubt (see 3.1.4 below).
3.1.3 A car that has a history that shows there was more than one MG Works supplied chassis for the same chassis number, will be listed under that chassis number if it is based on the original/first chassis or, in the case of a car based on the factory replacement/second chassis, with that chassis number and the suffix ”/2”.
3.1.4 A car built on an original Triple-M chassis which does not clearly show its original chassis number but has sufficient physical or documentary evidence to link it to an original number, will be listed under that number unless it is later proved otherwise.
3.1.5 A car built on an altered chassis but having its original front knuckle clearly showing its original number, will be listed under that number with the note “altered chassis”.
3.1.6 A car built on a reconstructed chassis but having its original front knuckle clearly showing its original number, will be listed under that number with the note “reconstructed chassis”.
3.1.7 A car built on a new chassis but having an original front knuckle clearly showing its original chassis number, will be listed under that number with the note “new chassis”.
3.1.8 A car built on an original Triple-M chassis, incorporating a collection of Triple-M components manufactured to their original specification, which is not covered by any of the above criteria may be included in the Register Listing at the discretion of the Committee.
3.1.9 A complete original chassis clearly showing its original chassis number will be listed in the Register under that chassis number with the note “chassis only”.
In operating these guidelines the Committee will have regard to factors that may, in varying degrees, affect its judgement about a particular chassis or car. These factors include the following:
- The completeness, originality or integrity of the main components of a chassis, including its castings, side or other rails and tubes;
- Factual evidence of past damage or destruction of a chassis or its major components;
- Factual evidence of the replacement of damaged or destroyed chassis components with period or modern replacements;
- Factual evidence of the defacing and re-stamping of a front dumb-iron (knuckle);
- The M.G. Works guarantee plate and its stampings;
- The M.G. Works stamping of the bonnet hinge.
3.2 Guidelines for the Allocation of Register Numbers
3.2.1 A Triple-M Register Number will be allocated to the following Register entries:
3.2.1.1 A Triple-M car which is complete, roadworthy and consists of all original Triple-M components;
3.2.1.2 A Triple-M car which is essentially complete with its original chassis and original Triple-M components whether roadworthy, under restoration or dismantled in storage;
3.2.1.3 A Triple-M car which is essentially complete with its original chassis but includes some reproduction Triple-M components, whether roadworthy, under restoration or dismantled in storage;
3.2.1.4 A Triple-M car which is essentially complete with its original chassis but includes some components not originally fitted to Triple-M cars (e.g. XPAG engine, Armstrong pre-selector gearbox), whether roadworthy, under restoration or dismantled in storage. If the Registrar considers that the proportion or type of non-original components is excessive, the application will be referred to the Committee. At the Committee's discretion such a car may be denied a Register Number;
3.2.2 A Triple-M Register Number will not be allocated to the following:
3.2.2.1 A Triple-M car built on a reproduction chassis without an original identity.
3.2.2.2 A Triple-M car that displays a chassis number that is not correct for its chassis type (original or reproduction).
3.2.2.3 A Triple-M “chassis only” entry or an entry where a number of major components are lacking e.g. a car without a body or one without a drive train. As soon as the details for such an entry indicate that the package represents an essentially complete car, the provisions of section 3.2.1 above will apply.
Notes
A Triple-M Register Number always stays with the chassis on which the car was built when the Number was first allocated. It is not transferable.
In cases where there is ambiguity about the true identity of a car, the Committee reserves the right to include that car in the Register listing on a provisional basis pending the receipt of definitive evidence concerning that car. The Committee may likewise withdraw or suspend a Register Number if a car is found to contravene these guidelines.
Any member of the M.G. Car Company Club Ltd. who is the owner of a listed Triple-M car may discuss the classification of their car with the Committee.
End of quote
So that should be clear now!
In cases where the Committee has to rule on whether an owner's car can be accepted, we always aim to rely on available factual evidence and, if necessary, a physical inspection of the car in question is undertaken. We often have to place some reliance on information given to us by owners (members) (edited to correct typo) and it our earnest hope that such information is given to us in good faith.
I am not aware of any circumstance where the Committee has favoured cars owned by particular individuals - the Rules are the same for everybody.
I hope this (lengthy - sorry!) commentary is helpful.
Please keep in mind that our Committee does operate very much on the basis of mutual good faith. Occasionally we have to invoke the judgement of Solomon, so please spare a thought for us!
Dick Morbey
Register Chairman |
Edited by - DickMorbey on 30/06/2017 15:41:35 |
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Dow
United Kingdom
490 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 17:57:30
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I have no axe to grind here, and am just interested.
As for the suggestion that the Register will approve a new chassis identity based solely around a knuckle with an authentic stamping the answer is "no"! Take a look at our Register Listing guidelines at http://www.triple-mregister.org/registerlogin.asp in which the various criteria for acceptance are clearly laid out.
How does the above equate with 3.1.6 and 3.1.7
Sorry to quibble.
Regards
David D |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3681 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 19:51:24
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Hi David,
My take is:
3.1.6 A car built on a reconstructed chassis (meaning a chassis that is based on an Original Triple-M chassis that has had some of its elements replaced with reproduction or non-original parts. e.g. if the side rails or the cross tubes or the castings are replacement parts , but having its original front knuckle clearly showing its original number, will be listed under that number with the note “reconstructed chassis” (Edited to insert missing words)
and
3.1.7 A car built on a new chassis (meaning a reproduction chassis i.e. a chassis that did not emanate from the M.G. Works) but having an original front knuckle clearly showing its original chassis number, will be listed under that number with the note “new chassis”.
In the present case I believe the owner of the car understands what its identity is. I suggest that to insert a knuckle from another car with or without that knuckle's original serial number would probably create an irreconcilable identity conflict.
We should not pre-judge the possible outcome of the present case - and at any rate it is a private matter as between the Register and the owner and will depend on the route he decides to follow.
Dick Morbey
PA/PB 0743
Frieth, Oxon, UK |
Edited by - DickMorbey on 30/06/2017 19:53:09 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1053 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 20:23:44
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What I understand David means to say is that the knuckles Ian offered could make a triple M with the addition of a new chassis.
Hell if a few garages would be cleared a few chassis rails and castings easily could be found and it would pass 3.1.1
If this is not what is "meant" in the text it should be ammended.
Or is my understanding of the English language at fault?
Onno "D" Könemann |
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IanG
Australia
72 Posts |
Posted - 30/06/2017 : 23:05:23
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I certainly apologize as this seems to have opened a can of worms. I had no idea it would create such a raucous, nor did I know the guidelines as Dick has pointed out.
All I set out to do was innocently pass on a set of useable knuckles that have no monetary value or use to me to someone who was in need of a replacement for a damage one. The intention to grind off the number was to insure that a fake J2 did not later appear claiming to be the car that the knuckles came off. For the record these knuckle came to light in the 1950’s on a then bent chassis with a ford 10 motor. What was salvagable from the chassis was removed by my uncle who in his day was well known in MG racing & of which two of his cars exist in Australia.The knuckles were passed onto to me in the 1980's when I had my P type.
On a positive note I guess we can now account for another J2 all be it just the knuckles.
No doubt Dick & I will continue our previous discussion privately.
Cheers
Ian
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Ross Kelly
Australia
227 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2017 : 07:18:05
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Hi All,
Just to add another clarification question. MG N type rebuilt recently from various spare parts but not in the style of a factory built car how is this car defined?
It was built on an original MG chassis with an original stamped knuckle.
Is this car regarded as a N special or as a NA or NB as defined by the chassis number?
cheers
ross
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2017 : 08:51:13
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Ian
So these knuckles might be from a car he used and with competition history? do you know of his exploits? Did Mike Hawke?
Best wishes
P
(...What was salvagable from the chassis was removed by my uncle who in his day was well known in MG racing...)
PS 102nd post... |
Edited by - PeterL on 01/07/2017 08:52:16 |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2017 : 10:39:47
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For a start I agree with Olli's post dated 30th June. This is the straightforward solution to this issue.
Unfortunately the Register has rather dug its own grave over many many years. Cars have been registered which should never have been accepted sometimes based on flimsy information and sometimes where some members of the Register knew that they were not the original cars. Now there is a long and rather inadequate set of rules and regulations around which the Register tries to act as both judge and jewry they have an even more difficult task on their hands.
As Dick says they usually have to accept information that is given to them. Sometimes it is extremely difficult to define with any certainty whether a car is original. The chassis number is King rule does not in my opinion determine a cars identity. Continuity of history is a vital component in assessing a cars originality. There are genuine cars out there without chassis numbers and other cars which are genuine and have a known history where the chassis has been changed etc etc
I have in the past inspected and reported on cars for the Register and in some of these cases the mechanical or structural situation was clear one way or another but was contradicted by the history and paperwork attached to the car.
I think the Register of cars can only list what is known. Unless inspections are carried out by experienced and qualified people which is clearly not possible with cars all around the world I do not believe the Register should try and be judge and jewry.
The Register cannot undo decisions made in the past and cannot remove from the Register cars previously accepted so the Register will never be a totally accurate record.
Perhaps the most important message is to buyers of our cars. They must understand that the Register is simply a list of cars and that statements by vendors like " accepted by the Triple M Register" or " On the Triple M Register " do not mean that a car is authenticated by the Register.
The whole subject is a bit of a mine field I am afraid.
TH |
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Frank
Germany
22 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2017 : 16:45:36
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Hello everyone,
my simple question of help has led to a discussion of principles. To follow her was very interesting to me. But it was never my intention to put others in trouble. Ian, thank you for your offer to help me.
Through your advice I have found a way to repair the original parts. I think that is the best way to the history of my car.
Thanks again to all who helped me.
King regards
Frank |
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