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MH
Germany
199 Posts |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 11:13:21
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won't be long before that's up for sale at £50k....LOL......on a serious and maybe controversial note how much of the chassis will be recoverable the cynic in me says as long as the RHD dumb iron knuckle joint can be saved and maybe the original engine Block (if not already changed back in the day)the rest can and probably will be rebuilt from available MG parts and what can't will be made new then destined to be registered as a matching numbers car......what's your opinion |
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John Mee
United Kingdom
209 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 12:46:15
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Hi Russ. As you can see I am selling an F type engine put into my car in the 60s, it's been in my garage for forty years. Interestingly the white F2 which I think it was originally fitted to is for sale in the cars for sale section and according to the register still has that engine number. It would be interesting to see what the number is on its current engine. I think a lot MMM cars have non matching engine numbers, these were relatively cheap cars and when an engine needed extensive work it was often cheaper to fit a reconditioned unit saving time in the garage, a practice common up to 70s for most mass produced cars. There does seem to be a trend with all makes of classic cars to replace everything. But there is also a trend to just do enough work to make the car usable keeping original upholstery and paint work where ever possible. TheVSCC have recently said a special produced from a perfectly decent saloon car will not be accepted for racing at their events. I think if the car has a high percentage of original parts and the correct type of engine the number is not to important, if the bodywork has been changed it should be made clear it is a replica or a special.
John Mee |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 15:48:24
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quote: Originally posted by John Mee
Hi Russ. As you can see I am selling an F type engine put into my car in the 60s, it's been in my garage for forty years. Interestingly the white F2 which I think it was originally fitted to is for sale in the cars for sale section and according to the register still has that engine number. It would be interesting to see what the number is on its current engine. I think a lot MMM cars have non matching engine numbers, these were relatively cheap cars and when an engine needed extensive work it was often cheaper to fit a reconditioned unit saving time in the garage, a practice common up to 70s for most mass produced cars. There does seem to be a trend with all makes of classic cars to replace everything. But there is also a trend to just do enough work to make the car usable keeping original upholstery and paint work where ever possible. TheVSCC have recently said a special produced from a perfectly decent saloon car will not be accepted for racing at their events. I think if the car has a high percentage of original parts and the correct type of engine the number is not to important, if the bodywork has been changed it should be made clear it is a replica or a special.
John Mee
exactly my point John should this car not be in say an unverified Provenance section if there was one....people like me who know very little (but learning fast)come to registries like this as a place to give them confidence that when they locate a car they want to buy and with the relevant information they can look that car up on the registry Data base and if it's shown in the MMM Verified cars sub section data base (if there was one) then they'd be safe in the knowledge that it's a true and proper car which has been duly noted and verified by the MMM aficionados who after all are the ones who as far as I know have access to the original MG Factory paperwork / build sheets etc. perhaps the Data base could be split into different sub sections verified and non verified cars....am I right in thinking that an owner of a MMM car registers his own car here adds a picture or two and that's it does anyone check it and query if said owner say has been economical with the truth about its origins I understand there could be huge difficulties in this but surely it would add value to a car and make such cars more saleable? anyway to me buying a car is much like buying a painting if you want a painting to be verified as to its authenticity you go to the Courthauld institute or the Wildenstein institute and they wont give provenance to any painting unless they have 100% concrete evidence scientific and history paper trail and they don't care who they upset....that is amusing John if you have the original engine for that particular F2 sitting in your garage I've got the fellows number maybe you should give him a call and ask him if wants to buy it so he can reunite them a marriage made in heaven eh...LOL |
Edited by - Russ Jackson on 15/09/2017 15:50:58 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 16:00:31
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On the North American Triple-M Register, and I suspect on the MGCC Triple-M Register, the listing of a car neither confers provenance nor authenticity. It is always up to the owner and potential buyer to satisfy themselves that the car is what it claims to be and they are happy to pay whatever is asked.
Lew Palmer PA1169, PB0560 |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 16:32:52
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Lew is absolutely correct!
Dick Morbey PA-PB0743 Frieth, Oxon, UK |
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Cooperman
United Kingdom
764 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 16:36:46
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Isn't this the car Jeremy Hawke is dealing with? There is a topic about it but I can't find it!
John Cooper M 628 |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 16:38:26
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quote: Originally posted by LewPalmer
On the North American Triple-M Register, and I suspect on the MGCC Triple-M Register, the listing of a car neither confers provenance nor authenticity. It is always up to the owner and potential buyer to satisfy themselves that the car is what it claims to be and they are happy to pay whatever is asked.
Lew Palmer PA1169, PB0560
I appreciate that Lew and due diligence should be exacted at all times I understand that taking a stance like the Wildenstein and Courthauld institutes that there could be legal implications if provenance was said to be correct and someone buys a car off the back of that but was subsequently proven wrong it does appear though to me how someone who is new to MMM's looks at the database and sees certain snippets of information things like engine number - original was formerly a salonette now an F2 rep or whatever why they wouldn't take this at face value and further query a cars provenance after all it is shown on the MMM Data base.....do you see what I'm getting at may be I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
948 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 16:59:19
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Just to illustrate the issue:
suppose you buy a MMM car which has a published Register number, quoted by the vendor as a part of the sale details. Subsequently the Register Committee decide that, on the basis of further information, the car should be removed from the Register and its Register number cancelled (it has happened), who do you sue for any loss of value?
Ian Bowers OD 6791 J3 3772 |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 17:32:38
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quote: Originally posted by Ian Bowers
Just to illustrate the issue:
suppose you buy a MMM car which has a published Register number, quoted by the vendor as a part of the sale details. Subsequently the Register Committee decide that, on the basis of further information, the car should be removed from the Register and its Register number cancelled (it has happened), who do you sue for any loss of value?
Ian Bowers OD 6791 J3 3772
but cars already have a MMM registry entry with indication as to body and engine originality but if you can't rely on this information what's the point of it? a 2 part database 100% verified with unquestionable provenance and a unverified sub section should cover all the bases I suspect most cars would end up in the unverified sub section indicating that if you're a buyer attention and due diligence need to be paid to the actual provenance if an owner wants to get their car onto the 100% verified sub section then the owner will need to prove his/her cars authenticity to the MMM registry boffins a cars value is only what someone is willing to pay for it but it's nice to be able to have the backing of the experts |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 17:55:05
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If one needs an expert to validate a car's provenance, then hire an expert. I am a registrar of the NAMMMR, but do not consider myself an expert on all thing Triple-M. Yes, I have some knowledge based on my ownership and restoration of several Triple-M cars over 35 years, but that knowledge is limited. I suspect most registrars feel the same. Often, we need to depend of the word of the owner, possibly supplemented by photographs. This is especially true in North America where cars may be thousands of miles from me, so inspection is virtually impossible. Many a car has been listed, for example, as a K3, when in fact it is simply a recreation based upon something having nothing to do with a K-type. Having said that, yes, it is helpful to gain the knowledge of people more experienced than ourselves, but just because a car is listed on the Register, does not mean that an experienced eye has been cast upon the subject car, nor been subjected to the register acceptance criteria. The database, and the printed register before it, can only signify that the car exists in the hands of the listed owner.
Lew Palmer PA1169, PB0560 |
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JMH
United Kingdom
913 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2017 : 18:36:46
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Yes it's J2192 & the one I've been involved with (my wife's an archaeologist). Search under "Archaeology", or - http://www.triple-mregister.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12307&SearchTerms=archaeology on here & you'll find the thread. Wessex Archaeology have done a bit on it on their web-sit & now the rest of the media is now picking up on it. The car has been known about since earlier this year, but they didn't go too public until it had been removed from site for obvious reasons. The chassis is bent, but saveable with some useful fittings etc, with a good clear stamping.
JH
To be sold through auction by the MOD's contractor Withams Specialist Vehicles, so it will find it's own value |
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Colin McLachlan
United Kingdom
994 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2017 : 09:39:11
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quote: but cars already have a MMM registry entry with indication as to body and engine originality but if you can't rely on this information what's the point of it? a 2 part database 100% verified with unquestionable provenance and a unverified sub section should cover all the bases I suspect most cars would end up in the unverified sub section indicating that if you're a buyer attention and due diligence need to be paid to the actual provenance if an owner wants to get their car onto the 100% verified sub section then the owner will need to prove his/her cars authenticity to the MMM registry boffins a cars value is only what someone is willing to pay for it but it's nice to be able to have the backing of the experts
Russ, I suggest you have a look at the current Register Guidelines here: http://www.triple-mregister.org/registerlogin.asp. This explains the point of the Register.
Producing a two tier Register as you suggest would involve considerable extra expense, which would have to be charged to the owner requesting such a 100% verification. This would likely so limit the take-up as to make it irrelevant. Such a verification would then create a serious legal liability for the Register, and one small mistake could bankrupt the MGCC.
The Register as it stands serves a defined and useful purpose, and I'm sure we are all grateful to the volunteers who maintain it. Let's not try to make it something it can never be.
Colin
Markinch, Fife. PA 0613 MG3242 Register No. 2591 |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2017 : 18:35:28
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quote: Originally posted by Colin McLachlan
quote: but cars already have a MMM registry entry with indication as to body and engine originality but if you can't rely on this information what's the point of it? a 2 part database 100% verified with unquestionable provenance and a unverified sub section should cover all the bases I suspect most cars would end up in the unverified sub section indicating that if you're a buyer attention and due diligence need to be paid to the actual provenance if an owner wants to get their car onto the 100% verified sub section then the owner will need to prove his/her cars authenticity to the MMM registry boffins a cars value is only what someone is willing to pay for it but it's nice to be able to have the backing of the experts
Russ, I suggest you have a look at the current Register Guidelines here: http://www.triple-mregister.org/registerlogin.asp. This explains the point of the Register.
Producing a two tier Register as you suggest would involve considerable extra expense, which would have to be charged to the owner requesting such a 100% verification. This would likely so limit the take-up as to make it irrelevant. Such a verification would then create a serious legal liability for the Register, and one small mistake could bankrupt the MGCC.
The Register as it stands serves a defined and useful purpose, and I'm sure we are all grateful to the volunteers who maintain it. Let's not try to make it something it can never be.
Colin
Markinch, Fife. PA 0613 MG3242 Register No. 2591
fair enough......watch "fake or fortune" you'll see where I'm coming from ![](images/icon_smile.gif) |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2017 : 20:21:43
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Maybe I could add my two pennyworth as a long term classic car owner and a ' irrepressible enthusiast ' of another marque ( the clubs description of me ). How many classic cars can claim to be totally ' original '? With upgrades, reproduction spares and accessories..from early on the cars life, many owners with their own ideas, interpretations and modifications ? I own two classics ( not MG ) that are the same model same year of 1935. One is on the cusp of being a ' concours standard restoration and the other a complete and totally original model which has never been restored, repainted,upgraded or modified. My ' Concours ' model will be driveable on modern roads and a testament to the car when new. The original car ( abeit a time capsul ) is undriveable, an ' oily rag ' barn find, lovely to look at and attracts a lot of attention. So don't make the mistake of being ' too picky ' we need both types of cars to keep them flourishing. I have had my say !!
CJD |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 18/09/2017 20:24:01 |
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2050 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2017 : 21:02:35
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My sentiments exactly !!
Well said, Chris |
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