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NigelKK
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2017 : 20:24:47
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| I am currently restoring a 1930 M type that hasn't seen the roads for the last fifty years. When I got the car there was only the scuttle with one door attached, no back end at all. I wish to try and make my own ash frame but have nothing to copy of the rear boat tail. Do anybody have any plans of the shape and sizes of the timber used please. The other problem I have is should the frame be covered in steel or frabic the car was registered 1st April. Any help would be gratly appreciated. |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3244 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2017 : 21:02:40
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Hello Nigel
Welcome to the Forum and well done on buying your M type. I hope you will let our M type Registrar and M specialist Mike Dalby have the details of the car.
I know you will find a great deal of help from the many M type owners.
The Register produces a very good Yearbook and also the bi- monthly Bulletin, the subscription form for the latter can be found in the Documents section.
Good luck with the rebuild.
George,
Secretary.
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PreWarMG
Australia
437 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2017 : 22:26:29
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Welcome Nigel,
Only the last 250 or so M-Types were steel panelled, so yours will be Fabric.
Building an Ash frame is more akin to boatbuilding, so find someone nearby who does that and make a friend - It's not the work that takes the time, it's the decisions.
Only an experienced hand can help you with the decisions. Scout around this website for frame drawings and also the Vintage Minor Website - they support M-Types too.
Enjoy the journey - it is fun !.
Tony
M1524 - chassis only export to Australia
We are here for a good time, not a long time !. |
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poulsendk
Denmark
270 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 08:14:22
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Hi Nigel.
You can send my our emailadresse. I have M type body dravins and photos I will send you. I have made M769 and now I'm making M2642
You are welcome to wisit my and the M types here in Denmark. It is easy and cheap to get from Stansted to Billund by Ryan air.I'm living
35 min from the airport in DK, I will pick you up in the airport.
Jorgen Poulsen DK poulsendk@stofanet.dk
MGM 1930 MGM 1931 |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 08:50:36
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There a many subtelties to an M type body which, if ignored, can result in a repro' body which is close, but not quite right. I have seen (even owned!) some truly awful ones.
This can be avoided and I strongly recommend you do your homework before any timber is cut.
I think the problem is that at a glance the M type body looks relatively uncomplicated and has therefore attracted a lot of owners to 'have a go'. Not saying you won't be able to do it but it is important that anyone embarking on such a project should have all the right data - and there is a lot of conflicting data available to the would-be M type body builder.r
Another subtle detail that is important to the overall correct look of the car is the profile/curvature of the windscreen glass. So many you see don't look quite right.
The difficulty you will have is knowing which sources are reliable and those that are less so (i.e. people who think they know, but are actually mis-informed).
Another detail which, if wrong, will spoil the look of the car is the downward curvature of the boot lid.
Many years ago I made a new ash frame for a J2. It was a huge task although very rewarding but I have to confess some mistakes were made. |
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Malcolm Eades
United Kingdom
380 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 10:41:54
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There is an excellent Dutch website with lots of helpful information for MMM owners, including a set of sketches of M Type body details:
www.mgmmm.com/drawings/wooden-body-parts
I echo Kimber's remarks about subtleties and doing your homework. See as many cars as you can, the more original the better. Unlike most ash frames, the M Type's is built onto the floor and the usual practice is to make a single-sheet ply floor and only let in the transmission tunnel when the frame is complete. This keeps it all stable during construction. And don't cut the doors too tight because there has to be room for the fabric covering afterwards.
Malcolm
M Type
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 11:14:54
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I think the most successful M-type bodies seem to be made by people who have access to original fragments to copy. In period photos of open two seaters they seem to have been accurately repeated in the Carbodies factory.
Rare unrestored original examples I have measured are like clones but subtle changes did occur at various stages. I believe parts for bodies produced around the same time are accurate enough to be interchangeable.
It is easy to make the mistake of copying a copy or even worse.
Sam |
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Malcolm Eades
United Kingdom
380 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 12:58:56
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There must be quite a lot of original frame components out there. I have often thought that if we all took photos of the body fragments that we know to be original, by pooling them we might end up with quite a complete archive to complement the various notes and sketches available. For instance, the only bit of my car's previous body that I know to be original is the front scuttle arch, which I have kept. It has perfect examples of the subtleties referred to: the inside edges are not a mirror image, with the drivers side more angled; the notch for the scuttle top rail is cut at 45 degrees so that the end of the rail cannot be seen from the front; the bottom triangular strengthening blocks are slightly recessed into the uprights; it still has the purpose-made steel corner-reinforcing brackets.
BTW Nigel, you will note that Jorgen's latest project has cut-away doors, so I guess he may be recreating a "Double-Twelve" competition car. Before you get too involved in the pursuit of originality, think about what sort of car you want to end up with. A standard two-seater is not the only option if you fancy something a bit more sporty-looking and it's a shame to realise this too late.
Malcolm
M Type
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 15:16:06
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The big problem is that the parts are so three dimensional and curved in different directions and very difficult to measure. But when things go wrong they instantly offend the eye.
Is there a modern technology which can measure double curvature shapes to allow them to be recreated faithfully ?
Sam |
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NigelKK
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 20:33:31
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| First of all I must thank you all for your replies which made me as a new member feel you're all welcoming me into the clan. I feel that the club should all work together and set up an archive of the ash frame parts for all the models of MG's before these original parts are lost forever as Malcolm has suggested. |
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Onno
Netherlands
1059 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2017 : 23:07:27
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As I was originally trained as a joiner and have spent a lot of years as a draughtsman I must say that it is entirely (in my mind easily) possible to make a good set of drawings from which anyone can make a good reproduction of a body.
No modern technology is needed.
First you make a complete set of plans for the total body.
And then it is vital that every single wooden piece is drawn up exactly in all necessary views and sections.
This is what makes it a time consuming job
This can easily be done in autocad (2d draughting software)
The problem most cheaper 3d modeling softwares have is that they can not really work with compound curves.
And the programs who can properly compute the cost an arm and a leg and need a lot of specialist training.
Now we just need 1 original body and completely take that to pieces.
If you take pieces from several different bodies be prepared for countless little differences.
Onno "D" Könemann |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2017 : 10:05:28
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Finding original pieces not be a problem but finding a complete original body to measure and dismantle would be more challenging.
The owner of UW 3922 recently replaced this amazing survivor with a replica Le Mans body. I wonder if he kept the original body.
Sam |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2017 : 11:43:57
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The owner of UW 3922 is John Emmett who is perhaps aware of this thread.
Sam |
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Malcolm Eades
United Kingdom
380 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2017 : 17:37:52
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He is now! I had lunch with him and the Home Counties stalwarts of the PWMN. He told me he does indeed have some of UW 3922's original body but, sage that he is, he commented that using an accumulation of fragments from different cars may not lead to an optimal outcome because of minor differences between them. Nonetheless, if someone is starting with nothing, I think even a set of parts from different cars is going to be helpful in understanding the basic structure.
Malcolm
M Type
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JohnE
United Kingdom
377 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2017 : 22:55:54
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A group of us put together a dropbox full of drawings etc going back a long time.
I have offered it to Nigel, but if anyone else wants to share it, just send me your e-mail.
We know there is wrongness in there, but we don't know where it actually lies, so please beware.
Another useful route that I have followed is measuring up some of the factory photos taken with a plate camera. I was told that Oxford photograpers did quite a lot of architecture, so they were natrually good at correcting perspective. Indeed, you can get sub inch measurements this way, almost certainly proving that the LeMans bodies were taken from the 1928 prototypes.
For production, Carbodies dropped the compound scuttle curvature, and created a more complex firewall to improve access and lengthen the bonnet. Nevertheless there are some pretty "dodgy" coach building features left about the M (in my view), and those will make a real puzzle and dilemma for any purist restorer!
As for UW3922, I used what I could and made up the rest. I think the only bit not being recycled into other M's, is the aluminium boot rim.
JohnE |
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PreWarMG
Australia
437 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2017 : 08:16:39
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I am a soon to be retired (Xmas !) AutoCAD draftsman, looking at 2 weeks to recover from an operation in February.
I think I would enjoy being housebound while drawing up an M-Type timber frame & dimensioning all the components.
The draft drawings could then be reviewed by a few "experts", before adjustments are made & the final drawings going to Nick for the Download section.
We are here for a good time, not a long time !. |
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