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Mike
United Kingdom
229 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2008 : 15:49:57
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To those that seek to destroy our MMM heritage I can only quote from the editorial of the March VSCC Bulletin.
Cars are best as they were in period, and for preference with an original body. I deplore the practise of removing original saloon or touring bodies to replace them with replicas of more sporting styles and would much rather an original 3 litre Bentley saloon than a Le Mans replica. There seems no point in modernising vintage cars, making them faster or fitting wider tyres for more grip so that they loose their vintage character, far better to use them as the designer visualised and experience what motoring was like 80 years ago. We are but custodians of history and future generations will not thank us for damaging the very artefacts we seek to preserve.
Well said that man he has even drawn me out of my MMM web site sabbatical. After all, mention the foibles of a MMM car to any old car enthusiasts and its the oil leaking onto the dynamo and cable brakes come to the fore but now we have no oil leaking onto the alternator and hydraulic brakes.
Back to my sabbatical.
M ELLIS |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 17:01:04
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Mike
I think you speak a lot of sense to be honest.
As someone who raced modern cars in the 80's and 90's I personally see no point in racing my NA. It is too slow and rather boring to be honest and I can drive it on the public road just as fast.
That said I am not an originality freak - as long as the cars are used I don't really care.
However most of the modifications mentioned do nothing to improve the cars and in this way I agree with you.
Hydraulic brakes only becoe worthwhile when racing - the standard cable 12 inch brakes are not that much worse than the best hydraulic conversions.
We modified my sisters NB racer a couple of years ago and did improve its stopping ability to a very good degree - but it is a racing special and was built as such.
We only went down this route once we had successfully proved it was as fast as we could make it with the original equipment.
Even then we have strived to make it look as much as possible like a car that might have left Abingdon.
This year it is being modified back to road trim and 18 inch wheels - it will keep its hydraulic brakes though.
Tom Dark and Mark Piercy are to be congratulated too - because the Q type single seater and the R type are both representative of the marque.
Peter Greens K3 is still pretty much as per its 1933 state of tune and runs 19 inch wheels and cable brakes.
I personally don't like cars with V6 engines (over 1500 cc - 6 cylinder), V4 engines (over 1000 cc - 4 cylinder), hydraulic brakes, KN saloons made into K3 replicas.
Although I am prepared to accept that - if it was not for them we wouldnt have anything out racing at all - and if that is the cost then ok.
I dont like the fact that the ex-Hall sprint NA special - built to take the record at Shelsley in 1934-35 - was broken up in the 80's to make a K3 replica.
The ex-Smith K3 single seater was broken up to make a 2 seat road car.
The ex-Hamilton (Robin Mere) K3 was broken up to make a 2 seat road car.
The ex-Dugdale NA special was fitted with a blower.
The Bellvue NE special now also has a blower.
None of these owners were right to do this in my opinion - but the car is the property of the keeper and the customer is always right!
I accept that we are temporary keepers - my Dad certainly tried to get me to accept the car for what it was.
The NA has been in my family since 1962 - for the first two years it was one of the fastest MMM racing cars.
Dad was trying to get people to make their cars more original and thought it rather hypocritical to have a 1950's special himself.
So during 1963 he set about re-building the car back to its 1935 form. The car was completed in 67 and he continued to race it until quite recently.
The car is still probably the fastest standard bodied road going MMM car to have left Abingdon(apologies to Bob Jones but his has a number of non u mods)John Duttons K2 is very fast but has a V6 engine and hydraulic brakes and a blower too and that was not fitted at the factory.
I have spent the last few years taking the car as far as possible back to its 1935 form - although it does have a number of unavoidable modern components.
I could start racing it again and prove it - but I cant be arsed to be honest - the car (like all MMM cars) is pretty hard pushed to reach 120 mph and laps Silverstone at an average of 75 mph - big deal the cars I drove in the 80's and 90's would barely manage 120 mph but would lap Silverstone at 100 mph and that was a lot more fun.
I can not see the point in dressing from head to foot in Nomex and then driving slower than you did on the road when driving to the meeting!
I am not knocking those who modify - I am not disagreeing with Mike Ellis either.
I understand both arguments and agree with both - sorry to play devils advocate here but - I do understand both arguments.
I would urge those with original cars to keep all of the original bits when they modify the car - so that when the car is passed to its next keeper, the car can be modified back to its original state if required.
Tuning cars has gone on since the dawn of time - but we dont actually prove anything - apart from our ability to spend money.
Mike I think you are right!
Regards David
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 18:01:32
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I don't think that there is a right-minded individual who would encourage the destruction of an historic or extremely original car, whether an MG or not.
However, I have some difficulty with the "cars are best as they were in period" part. What is the length of the 'period'? And, what do we mean by 'best'? Modifying MG's is hardly a new innovation. Why, even the factory would modify a new car if you wanted them to and a very high proportion of Triple M cars were owner-modified in the 1930's, 40's and 50's. I don't see any difference between carrying out similar mods now to those which were done 'in period'.
Personally, I don't object to any mods provided they can be reversed. There are plenty of very original cars about for people to see how things used to be. It should be entirely the choice of the individual owner as to how original or otherwise they choose the spec of their car to be. Some people may not have a choice.
Yes, in an ideal world we would all be preserving our motoring heritage by driving 100% original cars whilst wearing period costume, but I use my P-type several days a week to go to the office and I have to confess that it has several non-original or even non-'period' alterations. |
Edited by - kimber on 03/03/2008 18:09:13 |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 18:02:14
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I heartily concur with all of the above...but we must avoid the originality neurosis which rears its head from time to time! Anyway, what is this about v4/v6 engines - are we still talking Triple-M?
Maybe 80-odd mph in my P-type at Silverstone is not as frightening as the M4 at 5 'o' clock, but its a lot more fun!
cheers
Graham
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Cathelijne
Netherlands
744 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 19:48:49
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Yeah, Mike is back, or at least for this one comment! Please stay out of hibernation and spice up the forum every once in a while!
Hear hear to everything that's been said here, but I would like to ask David to get out on the track with his car! I for one have never seen it go (and probably a whole generation with me!) and if not much fun to him, it would definitely please the crowds to have full grids! And besides, the cars around you would go round at more or less the same speed, so you would always find yourself in actual competition.
Regards,
Cathelijne
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 20:09:31
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David,
I must clarify one point you have said. You say that John DuttonÆs K2 has a æV6 engineÆ which means it is over 1500cc in your language. Having built the engine I can state that it is only 1286cc, a standard engine size for a K2, yes it is supercharged (which at least 2 K2's were before the war) and John is a very good driver which accounts for it going like a 1500cc car. Also it does not have hydraulic brakes, it has it's original 13" cable brakes.
I thought I should mention these facts because we do not want the MGCC and VSCC handicappers thinking he is not entering the car in the correct class.
Peter.
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 23:12:59
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PA 0603 was restored to original by an expert restorer and caring owner to a very high standard, a rebuild which has lasted well for many years.
Not having access to the Build Sheets, then still within the factory, he removed almost all of the non-original parts, using 'Blower' as a guide. Sadly, these included many of the go-faster - and now hard to find - goodies added by the factory when the car was new.
I am, as cash permits, restoring it to its non-original originality. |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 00:22:31
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Back in the 1950's and 1960's roughly 25% of the existing Airline Coupes were converted to more "sporting" bodies. But what person, nowadays, would consider such a thing? Back then it was purely a matter of economica. Who wanted a clapped out old coupe when, with very little work, one could have a sporting 2-seater or even a racing special? Having built a wooden tub for an Airline from scratch to replace a very poor one, I can tell you I wouldn't ever do it again. But if the Airline wasn't such a piece of art, one could see how the thinking could easily proceed to a 2-seater.
Cheers,
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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Rodney Collins
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 08:46:34
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I seem to remember this thread being discussed some months ago, I also seem to remember it had the same sort of outcome, i.e. some hold the view that any old car should be kept as it was the day it left the factory, that to me is fine as long as the car gets used. (like Andrew Bradshaws PA outside his place of work yesterday) However it seems to me that the real users of these old cars regardless of make or model are the people who play with them and don't keep them as a work of art only to be shown at classic car shows. I know a bloke who has a mint gull wing merc worth a fortune plus he alos has the soft top version, neither see the daylight one month to the next but are as original as the day they come out of the Merc's works gates. As I said when this thread first run as long as the mods were avaliable at the time the car was built then go for it and enjoy it. Has anyone everseen Mikes Big Wooden Spoon??? Love it Mike.
Rodney |
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 10:07:55
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Rodney,
You are correct this topic was discussed in November when 'tonym' asked about the pro's and con's of fitting a four speed gearbox to an M type, same people same arguments.
Peter. |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 11:19:11
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Peter
My sincere apologies about the K2 engine in Johns car - I should learn to check my facts before I vent my spleen.
I agree about Johns driving and the car does go extraordinarily well which is probably down to the combination of good driver and sound engineering and assembly.
My point is one of outside looking in - I see no point of modification for modification sake.
The V6 and V4 engines I mention are those with staggered bores to achieve the extra clearance for liners.
There is at least one P special I know of and several 6 cylinder engines so modified.
From my own experience modifying A series engines - extra capacity does not usually give the payback in horsepower to match the time and effort required to achieve it.
With MMM engines before the war the factory managed huge power outputs from 1100 6 cylinder and particularly the 750 4 cylinder engines.
The unfortunate thing is that we seem to be trying to chase this same horse power and also have reliability - you cant have both.
You can have something near to it - but not both.
Modern racing specials are very good representations of the pre-war cars - but I would rather see the cars used than in a museum.
As to racing the NA again - there is another more serious reason why I wont be racing it - I can not afford to!
Again my apologies to Peter and especially to John (I will buy you both a beer to mend the slur) - I will read my posts and check my facts before posting in future!
Regards David |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 14:31:37
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Agreed about the repetition; the forum's 'Search' facility is under-used.
In response to an Email request, here is the list, compiled from the Build Sheets, of the FACTORY revisions to PA 0603. It was ordered by J. E. Rushbrooke of High Wycombe who is said - though, as yet, I have no documentary evidence, to have rallied the car and used it at Brooklands. Later 'owner' mods. are NOT shown.
Front-mounted Marshall supercharger with mountings etc..
Inlet manifold drilled and tapped (Ki-Gass?)
Supercharger drive-shaft assembly.
Supercharger front apron.
Supercharger gauge.
Pair of aero-screens.
Colmore clutch-stop.
KLG LB1 plugs and spare set.
Clutch with increased poundage clutch springs, etc..
Radiator Thermometer.
Oil thermometer.
Clock - later changed for customer's voltmeter.
Archimedean petrol-gauge.
Vibrac axle side-shafts.
Extra leaves to front springs.
Grab-handle. (perhaps two)
Water-pump.
Q-type petrol pump.
Two extra dash lamps and switch.
Modified (how is not stated) road-wheels.
Extra dash plug sockets.
Door arm-restsw to customer's own design in green leather.
Most of these disappeared over the years, though the Q pump and voltmeter were still there in 1959. Some - the Vibrac half-shafts may or may not still be there The major rebuild was in c1970 when the blower cross-member and the remaining parts of the installation were removed.
The car still has its original engine/'box, axle, body, bonnet, etc., though the starter-motor is not the original.
Any pre-war or just post-war sightings or writings will be rewarded.
I bought the car because we liked it: the above comes from the Build Sheets. Having this record prevents me adding cycle wings and a preselector 'box, let alone a staggered - cylinder engine. A MMM car par excellence
Over to you.
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 14:07:39
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PA 1964 , 2138 AP, Reg. OW 6881 is for sale on Ebay.
Since it is apparently a one-owner car and very original, is it ripe for conversion with cycle wings, an engine transplant, blower and preselector 'box to make a MMM concours contender? |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
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Gordon
United Kingdom
693 Posts |
Posted - 26/03/2008 : 16:38:03
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In his post Bob mentioned the Colmore clutch stop. What was this mod and did it work? Has anyone got it fitted to their car today?
Gordon |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 26/03/2008 : 18:31:04
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Kimber, is that a F*!D I spy in there? & Whats the story?
JMH |
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