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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
 Posted - 24/02/2020 : 16:04:24
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I think it is possibly time I step in here as I know some of the background. I am certainly not here to defend anyone’s position, but an engine builder in this situation can be placed in a compromised position and for him to respond may not necessarily help him defend his position. Let’s look at this on balance.
I believe the main problem here is a shortfall in the said engine builder failing to adequately manage his client’s expectations from the outset and possibly working far slower than the customer wanted to see. Also, there are, as has been raised, only a handful of good MMM engine builders, some work faster than others, they may all charge similar rates but some may be far more meticulous than others. Time served experience counts for a lot although some engine builders who are capable of delivering a first rate job may not always be equally as well practiced on the paperwork and communication side. Some are not as nimble possibly compared to younger specialists and I think they need to take this on board when looking at charge-out rates although equally they can be capable of doing a far better job based on a lifetime of MMM experience which some others cannot match.
This particular engine builder has been slow in delivering progress to Chris’ timescales and there should possibly have been greater transparency.
The above said, I am on a three week MMM tour of America at the moment and I have just spent 5 days here in New Jersey working on a J2 replacing a J2 engine with a new one which was flown out from the UK. This engine, built by the same engine builder being referred to, I have to say, is absolutely superb in every way; Large cam conversion, 939 cc, C/J4 front end with water pump, water delivery conversion to the rear of the head, custom light flywheel and modern clutch, raised compression, 2 brush dynamo, J4 oil filter, block / flywheel torsion brackets, blower coupling and J4 rad mount, 4 branch exhaust extractor manifold, and so it goes on, with every good mod and toy going. I dare say its quality is equal if not better than many track prepared engines and this engine builder is more than capable of building flying machines. What’s more, on installation straight out of the freight case and into the chassis, it started within a micro second first time on hitting the starter and in very cold weather indeed here in New Jersey. VERY few MMM engine builders can achieve this level of quality workmanship and knowing the way the head has been so carefully set up here, it really is first rate stuff. Many of you know, I am pedantic in the extreme in things being right, I can build a good engine too and I appreciate exceptional workmanship by others when I recognise it.
So to be fair, the cost of this particular New Jersey engine was I guess reflective of a high build quality, it was by no means cheap, but what is cheap. Delivery time was very slow and frustrating for the customer and myself as the appointed fitter, communication during the build process could have been far far better but the quality of the work was well worth waiting for and there is a very happy MMM owner here in the USA. This engine has also been run in, in the UK for 700 miles to guarantee its quality.
For Chris Dancey’s experience, communication by the engine builder and speed / lack of progress appears to have been rather less than was to be expected, VAT charging was a readily avoidable aspect if sound advice had been followed by the engine builder. A 20% unnecessary cost on a MMM build is a lot if this can be avoided bu a business with limited throughput. He is no accountant and I don’t think his accountant is either! General paperwork / communication could have been far better / more transparent. The work done so far to both engines and parts supplied i suspect was of first rate quality.
As many of you will know, as well as being a MMM parts manufacturing specialist, I am also a national Partner within a well known national commercial property / real estate consultancy. We have quotes occasionally submitted for building work, communication is not always as transparent as you would generally like to see and as the appointing side, sometimes you need to request what level of expectations are to b3 expected if this is not explicit. Timing may sometimes be an issue but providing agreed timescales are met, work is being undertaken to an exceptional standard based on reputation, and costings are in line with expectations, then everyone is usually pleased with a good end result. This engine builder is very good, but communication and managing of client’s expectations leaves room for real improvement. It may be an age issue, who knows or just the way he now works. If the engine builder can learn from this and heed wise advice then he will take some beating by many already in the MMM engine building trade.
In response to Chris’ suggestion on someone producing an engine builder’s manual, in reality, this is not going to happen. The four and six cylinder books referred to give a good brief background introduction to the various mmm models but on the technical side, they tell you virtually nothing of value in tacking an engine build, back axle or gearbox rebuild etc. You can learn more off the Forum as there are some clever knowledgable MMM enthusiasts out there. No trade specialist will give away all his trade secrets and release the ‘dark art’ effectively working themselves out of a job. MMM customers sadly have to pay to acquire the knowledge and gaining the required experience can only be gained through time and experience. No book can deliver this. I give a lot away on my ‘Vintage MG Parts’ Facebook page but I am different, not many can compete with my pattern making investment and machining simply to acquire a one off part. It is cheaper to simply buy the part from me. My trade competitors cannot really gain a commercial advantage in doing what I do, so in this respect, I am different in being able to share my experiences with MMM enthusiasts.
On one last point, a Rover or Austin 7 / Morris 8 specialist for arguments sake may be willing to work for £10 an hour and will no doubt deliver an simply designed engine which performs to its own limited potential. MMM engines require a high degree of skill to run properly which may command 4 times the Labour cost but this is often reflected in the complexity / degree of knowledge to make an engine perform at its optimum and possibly more so than the factory in its day could execute. So many times have I been told by a customer that they have a good local garage builder who will do the job. So many times have I said it will be a disaster or the engine will not pull the skin off a rice pudding and so many times the customer pays twice by having it all done again by th3 original person I recommended. More fool them I say. If it’s a Bugatti or Bentley engine build then you won’t find anyone willing to build it properly for a specialist MG engine build cost. It’s all relative and it depends what the customer is after at the end of the day.
At the end of the day, manage customer’s expectations well from the outset and throughout, and there will generally not be a problem from the engine builder’s perspective. Get it wrong and there will be criticism. Standard of build is not the issue here.
Rich
Vintage MG Parts |
Edited by - Richard Hardy on 24/02/2020 16:53:49 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2020 : 09:32:38
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Thanks Rich, I have only respect for the quality of the work that I have received with my two engine rebuilds by the said builder. My issues are as you described.
Regarding the creation of a Manual , there are those of us who would like the opportunity to attempt a rebuild, we may get it wrong but at least this gives the ‘ dark art ‘ some credibility and for some the self satisfaction that we have ‘ done the work ourselves ‘. With my specialism, I include my grandson in much that I am doing, at only twelve he already has some dexterity with a spinner that I have lost and we get to spend quality time together. At some stage I know that I will have to pass on my large collection of classics, my grandson will by then be well equipped to take over the role in my stead if he so chooses.
I will be transferring my two J2s to my collection unit storage to give myself a break, so will not be on here for a while, I have a couple of other classics to prepare ready for this years season plus a tour of Scotland with the Bentley..oh what fun !,
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2020 : 10:18:11
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I forgot to add that I will put a couple of photos on here when I am back in the UK to give an idea what is possible if ones wishes to make things possible with regards to a dedicated workshop manual.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1487 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2020 : 12:15:09
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What the devil has this topic been about ? Maverick, you came in on your white charger to save us all from a fate worse than death by "naming and shaming" in the same way as you have done before, and it now turns out that you were "bad mouthing" one of our highly respected engine builders and getting a bit miffed about him taking longer than you expected. I sincerely hope that if you get upset about other things in the future you can find some better way of dealing with them rather than your present "naming and shaming" method.
On the question of a "dedicated manual" for re-building MMM engines, I think we have plenty of excellent stuff available. I would first suggest that you get hold of "Tuning and Maintenance of M.G.s" by Philip H Smith. Philip Smith was a chartered motor engineer and writer and drove a blown PA in competition. The book was first published in 1952 and is a very straightforward work dealing mainly with the PB engine, with much of relevance to the J series. You must take into account that it was written almost 70 years ago at a time when many MMM cars were still in use and possibly the skills of the normal garage engineer were not as well honed as some of our modern specialist engine builders.
Next, get yourself a copy of the 2008 yearbook and go to page 24 where you will find an excellent article by Andrew Bradshaw on rebuilding pre-war MMM engines. There is enough in that 18 page article to put a novice rebuilder onto the right way of doing things.
Finally, as Onno has already mentioned, if you get yourself a copy of Malcolm Green's book "M.G. Road Cars. Vol 1 Four Cylinder Models" and turn to page 69 you will find two very detailed Chapters dealing with engine rebuilding by Bob Jones of Baynton Jones & Company. Bob and Charles Jones are in the top rank of MMM engine builders and describe very fully how to build a Class One engine, i.e. an engine built to full race specification. My one and only objection is that Bob assumes that everyone has access to a fully equipped machine shop, which in my case unfortunately is not true. I am not quite sure why Rich Hardy suggests that this book provides very little "in depth" technical information because that is simply incorrect. Were you looking at the right book, Rich?
Finally, over the years our MMM Yearbooks have provided excellent articles on virtually every part of our MMM cars, brakes, rear axles, dynamos, clutches, distributors, lighting systems etc. written by respected enthusiasts such as Barry Foster, Mike Allison, and the late Terry Andrews to name just a few. It is all there just waiting for you to read, Maverick. If you spent more time reading what is already available, and less time criticising all and sundry, life might just be better for all of us.
Colin B. |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2020 : 13:29:36
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Thankyou Colin, why has not someone put all this information in a single volume ? You obviously know where to look, but what about those who are recent owners who have no idea where to look ?
Strange that you at Stoneleigh were one of the two people to advise me to stay clear of this particular engine builder ? Have you now changed your opinion, or was the advice to me at Stoneleigh just ‘ fluff ‘ ?
I was hopeful that you may have been an enthusiast who could have given me some guidance, just with the engine rebuilds, I am more than happy with ancillaries etc. having restored all manner of classic car items over 60 years.
You took my email address and promised to respond that same evening, I am still waiting ! nothing received, how can I trust you when you asked about buying one of my J2s to add to your collection ?
It’s important in my view to highlight good work as well as poor, if you have another position then this is your perogotive. I know that those who respect my views have already contacted me and there are quite a number, that gives me some satisfaction.
Thankyou for your response, I will take note of your comments.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 27/02/2020 13:59:41 |
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chapelfarmer
United Kingdom
242 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2020 : 14:05:34
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it Would of course be great if all this info was collated and free but I imagine much of it is protected by copyright etc. It is after all the IP of industrious authors and time served expert suppliers and, in at least one case (yearbook 8), of our own register. Once we’ve accepted that we’ll have to reach into our wallets, Colin’s list above is undeniably extremely handy as a starting place and I intend to use it if / when I need to do any major work on my trusty little motor. Many thanks
john |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2020 : 14:09:24
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Colin, just to let you know that I am moving my two J2s into storage now so no reason now to post any further advice, I will be busy on other projects so no need to be on here now .
Further, Colin, you mention that I have ‘ named & shamed ‘ others ....can you remind me who they were, as I have so far been happy with all my suppliers and I cannot recall any that have provided poor services ?
If it was not you that I met at Stoneleigh, then I apologise, shame that you are just along the road from my Brighton house & workshop.
All the Best.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 27/02/2020 14:32:33 |
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colintf
United Kingdom
1501 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2020 : 17:48:19
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Many thanks Colin Butchers, after your recommendation, I've just bought the book :)
"On the question of a "dedicated manual" for re-building MMM engines, I think we have plenty of excellent stuff available. I would first suggest that you get hold of "Tuning and Maintenance of M.G.s" by Philip H Smith. Philip Smith was a chartered motor engineer and writer and drove a blown PA in competition. The book was first published in 1952 and is a very straightforward work dealing mainly with the PB engine, with much of relevance to the J series. You must take into account that it was written almost 70 years ago at a time when many MMM cars were still in use and possibly the skills of the normal garage engineer were not as well honed as some of our modern specialist engine builders."
Colin Murrell
D0285
Photographer for MGCC (LeMans Classic, Oldtimer Grand Prix etc) & MG Motor (BTCC 2012-5)
http://www.triple-mracing.com/ |
Edited by - colintf on 27/02/2020 17:48:51 |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3237 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2020 : 11:50:26
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As Colin has noted, there is plenty of information available from
the various sources - it would be great if some type of reference work could be created.
As an old codger I have all the books etc....!
George
L2023 |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1487 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2020 : 11:52:18
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Maverick. As you probably now realise, you have got the wrong man. I have never been to Stoneleigh in my life and I have no interest in buying one of your J2s, nor anyone else's. I have a PA which I have owned for over 60 years, and an NA which has been mine for over 50. Those two are as much (if not more) than I can handle.
You ask whether anyone has thought of combining what is already available into one dedicated book. As Chapelfarmer says, the question of copyright is likely to be a major problem, but apart from that, what is the point? As Simon Johnston (and I believe Terry Holden) have mentioned several times, almost all of the questions being raised on this forum have been raised and dealt with over and over again in the past. All anyone has to do is to use the "Search" function remembering to click on "Archived posts" and your questions will usually be answered. Personally, I have spent hours and hours of my life in the past visiting new MMM owners to assist and advise them, only to find that when completed their cars are put up for sale. I might be proved wrong, but I put you in that category. For someone who is obviously devoted to the Rover marque, I fail to see what your interest in our "quirky" little cars can be. Ours are bumpy, smelly, noisy and bounce all over the road at speed, but there is something about them which causes people like me (and the other many MMM owners who have owned and driven our cars for a very long time) to love them dearly. When you finish your two J2s I firmly believe that you will hate them and I simply cannot perceive you bouncing around in them on trials, or blasting up speed hill climb or sprint courses at 6000 rpm in third gear. That might not be your style at all, but it certainly was Dudley Cottingham's.
So far as the other "naming and shaming" which went pear-shaped, it was our good friends Austin Repro, of whom you were so highly critical that your postings on this forum had to be hastily taken down, and I thought that you were banned from making further postings. I can remember you being so incensed that you said that you would never use the forum again anyway. I think that lasted for at least three weeks. The matter is very clear in my mind because my experience has been that Willie provides a marvellous selection of parts for Austin and M.G. cars at sensible prices and built to a very high standard indeed. I have never ever come across anyone who has serious criticism of what Willie has on offer and he deserves to be lauded - not named and shamed. My own view is that your efforts are likely to rebound on you mightily. I cannot see many of our current suppliers and builders being too keen to take money from you in the future.
As you say, our homes are only five miles apart, and I am happy to leave it like that.
Colin B. |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3372 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2020 : 13:08:31
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OK guys, I think this topic has reached the end of its useful life. These comments are getting too personal so I will lock it now. Please do not restart this debate with a new post as it will be deleted.
Nick
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