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mgtommm
USA
506 Posts |
 Posted - 30/07/2009 : 02:27:40
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Hi Folks,
Is there any general consensus regarding arch back -vs- flat back J2 fuel tanks? Early, late, different supplier, design change?
The foto in the Duckham's book shows that gorgeous new J2 side view beside a (then) contemporary Duckham's tanker. It sports a flat back tank. I wonder if that car is still around?
Curious in sunny Ohio.........
Thanks, tommm |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2009 : 19:34:34
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Now there's a a question...........
Early cars had the "flat" tank. The change over date to "curved" tank is not recorded (or at least, no reference to it has come to light in any factory records). As a starter for 10, J2396 was still sporting a "flat" tank (the original?) in 1952. The J & P tanks are interchangeable so by the time the P Type came along, you probably got that for a replacement if you went for a new one for your J2.
Most if not all 1932/33 period photos of J2s show "flat" tanks.
Any post 1933 photo of a J2 with a curved tank could thus be sporting a replacement P Type tank.
Did all J2s have a "flat" tank when built?
The Guru along the road from me is currently delving into his considerable archive to see if he has any 1932/33 photos where a "curved" tank can be seen.
Does any body else out there know what their car has as new?
Meanwhile, I will uncork a bottle of the red stuff as we have had a very trying day getting the "modern" midget through it's MoT after 15 years in the corner of the garage (Grandaughter is scheduled to make her "debut" on Sunday & doesn't want to "break" the J2)
Regards
JH |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3246 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2009 : 20:02:54
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Hi Tommmm and all
The original tank for L2023 has a flat back to it.
Regards George. |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1641 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2009 : 20:18:42
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Jeremy I think that from around March of 33 most J2's had the later tank. Certainly when this question came up some years ago we recorded quite a number of cars from March and April 33 that originally had the later tank.
The late J2 tank is of course a specific design with different outlets to the P one.
I cannot answer Toms original question as to why they changed the design of the tank. Maybe it was just a design thing or maybe the later tank was stronger in construction. I have had a later tank apart but not an early one so am unable to compare their construction.
Enjoy the red !
TH |
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Steve Cooper
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 22:25:46
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ALL L2 tanks were the curved variety - so George, I'm afraid that your "original" L2023 tank is NOT the original  . Curved J2 tanks are NOT interchangeable with P type tanks because the fuel take offs for the J2 are on the top whilst the P type ones are on the bottom - even though the shape of the curved tanks are the same externally. I believe that the curved tank for the J2 was introduced at the same time as the L2 model (car) went into production about March '33 because the two tanks are identical apart from the fuel guage boss on top of the L2 tank. So, it was cheaper to make an L2 tank without the fuel guage for the J2 rather than continue with the previous flat shape. The curved shape then continued on to the P type. Hope that clarifies the situation  .
Steve. |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 12:47:33
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Steve,
You slightly miss my point. Whilst the tanks are not directly interchangeable (and for a modern restoration you would want the right one), from a 1930s perspective they were. Re-jigging the pipe-work would be a minor issue for any garage or owner faced with fitting a new tank so the "current" design of tank would most likely have been used, hence my comment re period photos.
Examination of period photos may refine the "around March date" slightly (assuming of course there was "clean" change-over)
Regards
JH |
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Steve Cooper
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 21:31:52
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Jeremy, re-jigging the pipe-work is not as straight forward as you suggest. I have never seen a photo of a J2 or one in the flesh sporting a P type tank - if you have got a photo of a J2 without the petrol pipes coming out of the top, I would like to see it. I think the change from flat to curved was as I said to do with the introduction of the L2. Don't forget that production of the F type 2 seater which also used the flat tank (and only that) was ceased at the same time.
Steve. |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 23:54:36
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Just to complicate matters further, don't forget, that there were 2 different styles of flat back tank
Rich
Vintage MG Parts |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3246 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 20:39:26
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As far as I aware the petrol tank which came off L2023 was original with the apperture for the petrol guage plus an original guage. The car was manufactured in March 1933 making it an early L2. It was a complete car when saved from a scrapyard in the early 1960s
Regards George.
L2023 |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 21:05:11
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Come on Steve, altering the fuel lines to suit a P Type tank would hardly be rocket science! I have never seen a J with a P fuel tank either, however, there used to be J2s around without the top tank fitting. Back in the 50s Derringtons made a tank that had the outlet on the bottom, which was a "std fits everything" kind of tank (it also lacked the side formings amoungst other things). I think it was just about the only alternative to getting a one off tank made yourself - not something your average MMMer would have contemplated back then.
One of those tanks was on the family J2 for many years, only being replaced in the mid 70s when the number of rebuilds going on meant that new ones had become easily available. I agree with your logic re the change over from flat to curved tank, but I also think it entirely logical that some cars could have ended up with P Type tanks pre war, simply for reasons of availability. Hence my original comment on photos.
Regards
JH |
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Steve Cooper
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2009 : 22:11:05
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George, I'm sorry but your "flat" tank is NOT the tank the car was built with. Just look at the original press photos of the L2 which clearly show a "curved" tank. Also, you forget that 45 years ago I used to own L2010 which is earlier than L2023 and that car had a curved tank. Mind you, the tank is not the only "strange" thing about "L2023" is it? What with the bonnet catches being in the wrong place on "the original" bonnet sides so you say and the chassis number stamped in the wrong place (on the nearside instead of the offside) - makes one wonder. Still, I suppose you will get to the bottom of it sooner or later. Have you had the offside front spring hanger X-rayed?
Regards, Steve. |
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mgtommm
USA
506 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2009 : 18:21:06
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OK Petrol Heads,
So, for certain the flat tanks are "early" and arch tanks are "late", with the switchover March-ish 1933. But we don't know if it was a clean switch over and we don't know the reason. My guess is the arched back was somewhat more stylish.
Further, it seems nobody has any clue about the J2 in that awesome photograph in "The Duckham's Story" book??? The Duckham's Morris Dictator tanker hain't too bad, either.
The photo description sez it was taken in 1932 (yes, flat tank) and Alexander Duckham, I believe, would have been the original owner. Perhaps I could get a scan copy on here. There's another shot of a J2 in trinidad, which I would assume is the same one. Alexander is driving the J2 on a ferry bridge and the front number plate bares "P 1248". I dunno if it's a UK reg or Trinidad, but I see no current listing for that reg number. I did a quick scan through MH's 75 Years of J2's with no joy.
Thanks all. tommm |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3246 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2009 : 21:36:10
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Hi folks
When Tom raised this subject I misunderstood what he meant by "arch back", I thought he was referring to that part of the tank which fits against the body! The rear surface of the original tank as fitted to L2023 - the chassis numbers on the guarantee plate/bonnet and chassis are all correctly stamped - is curved!
Apologies for the confusion!
Regards George
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Steve Cooper
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 11:52:38
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George. It is the "original" bonnet SIDES that are not correct on L2023 where there are no numbers. Also, if it is indeed the nearside of the chassis which is stamped (which you yourself told me), then that is not correct either. You know very well that this throws some doubt as to the authenticity of that chassis. I know of no other MMM car that has been stamped on the wrong side and as far as I am aware nor does anybody else. Strange it is just this one car. If it was me, I would certainly want to know why the wrong side is stamped and would investigate - probably have the offside X-rayed.
Steve. (L2080) |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 15:42:35
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My intention, since my disagreement with Peter Green, was not to contribute to this forum further.
However, since I was the chap who rescued the apparently complete L2023, ALA 656, from a Black Country yard back in the 'sixties, I can confirm that no body or chassis component, other than the wood framing, on this then bodily complete car, was replaced by me. George Eagle has a photograph of this framing.
Nor did I re-stamp the chassis, there being no reason to, an L.2 being much less sought-after then than now. The engine and 'box then fitted were from a post-war Riley 1 1/2 and the car went well but did not handle safely. My intention was to replace an MG engine to cure this.
The L.1 engine which I installed came from a saloon - probably a Continental Coup?, which I would have much preferred, then as now, to an L.2 - sledgehammered apart, partly in front of my horrified eyes, by the late Clive Jones, a then well-known 'old car enthusiast' who lived in a Shropshire railway station. The 'box was one of those which came with the car, which had a vanful of 'L' spares thrown in with it, alas now gone.
The L.2 followed PA O627, and un-remembered 'J' and 'F' models which went through my impecunious hands. It had the Registration number but I don't remember the build records being available then, advice coming from suppliers. I was not an MGCC member.
I sold the car in '72 or '73 for ú 750, as an alternative to bankruptcy, when a mature student at Birmingham U, losing track of it until recently.
I understand from Mr. Eagle that L 2023 has now been substantially altered by him.
PA 0603 is cooling down on the drive as I write. |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 16:36:10
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As a 'pens?e d'escalier' to the above, one thing that I did do was to have the chassis very comprehensively straightened, re-riveted and balanced through a contact at Rubery Owen Ltd., in Darlaston, Staffs., probably in the same buildings where it had been made.
They did a beautiful job, but as to whether the chassis number had been re-stamped after some heavy-duty work, I know not. It certainly was not altered by me.
On the subject of component change-over, the 'thirties motor firm of which I am supposed to be the historian certainly used a gradual and haphazard build change system with no fixed change date. Nor, I understand, did Austin, for instance.
Being old enough to have worked in Black Country manufacturing industry, the practice of my youth was to 'use up the old stuff when it could be used'.
Bob. |
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