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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2009 : 21:32:04
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I spent a very enjoyable three days (Thu, Fri & Sat) at Great Malvern celebrating the VSCC 75th anniversary. I did manage to bump into Dick Morby and saw many other MMM cars on site. On reflection I think that we should have had a MMM display on the Saturday when other prewar clubs were invited to attend. Twenty-five MMM cars participated in the various events during the week so it would have been appropriate for us to show the flag on the Saturday. Something to remember for the 80th celebrations in 2014?
Peter
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Rodney Collins
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 09:00:54
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Peter
Not sure we will all be around in 2014! If other clubs were invited to have a display, it sort of shows the contempt that the VSCC has for T MMM MG's.
Rodney |
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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 09:41:31
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| We will be flying the flag in 2014, the latest generation was out in force at the sprint on Wed, I think we had 9 MMM cars out in action!! As a new comer into the VSCC I see no evidence of the legacy issues with the VSCC, we have been warmly welcomed by all. We are often one of the smaller clubs in terms of numbers at VSCC events. 3 at Wiscombe, 6 at Curborough etc. The more we can get out to play the better. It certainly was a cracking few days in malvern. |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 10:24:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Collins
Peter
Not sure we will all be around in 2014! If other clubs were invited to have a display, it sort of shows the contempt that the VSCC has for T MMM MG's.
Rodney
Rodney
There was an open invitation to all prewar car clubs. The ball was in our court.
Mark
I agree that the 'old' attitude to MGs no longer exists in the VSCC. The addition of TAs and TBs to the PVT list is evidence of this. And I intend to be around in 2014, so I am sure that youngsters like Rodney will be.
Peter |
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peterfenichel
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 10:50:16
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As a regular competitor in VSCC races (K1/s Special) I do think there is now very little evidence that the VSCC is anything other than welcoming to our Triple-M MG's. The all MG race organised within the VSCC in 2006 being some positive further evidence of that. And, the MG and Austin race at Mallory last year. As suggested I think the ball is in our court to be more "pro-active" in terms of taking advantage of VSCC activities and flying the MG pre-war flag...
I suspect that we will have a warmer response from the VSCC than perhaps we get from the main MGCC who while professing support for all MG competitors in my view falls quite a bit short in recognising the special position 1920's and 1930's MG's have in the Club. That perhaps should be discussed in another thread on this forum given the issues that recently arose at MG Silverstone as regards the Kimber Trophy race!
Peter Fenichel |
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John James
United Kingdom
963 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 13:12:51
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Peter,
Perhaps you will elucidate to a 'humble peasant' who does not race? Let's have it out in the open!
JOHN JAMES |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 14:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by peterfenichel
I suspect that we will have a warmer response from the VSCC than perhaps we get from the main MGCC who while professing support for all MG competitors in my view falls quite a bit short in recognising the special position 1920's and 1930's MG's have in the Club.
Peter Fenichel
Couldn't agree more. In my view this is not a recent development either. |
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saltandvinegar
United Kingdom
105 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 14:23:16
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Having raced with the VSCC over a few years now I would say there is definately no animosity these days toward M.G.s. The VSCC are much more commercialy minded than they used to be. It wasn't always thus however. I can remember turning up at the Long Mynd Hotel, Church Stretton for the Start of the Measham Rally in the late '50s in a J2 and definately felt a little out of place. At that time of course they only allowed pukka Racing M.G's or M Types. When I started racing the M Type they seemed to look on it as something of a novelty- but I only ever won a Handicap Race once -after that the given Handicap was insurmountable!
Mike |
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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 14:57:19
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Mr Potters recent handicap win at Prescott in the C type has probably ruined any chance of any further MG awards!!! El Bandito!! |
Edited by - Dolts on 10/08/2009 14:58:59 |
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graham holdsworth
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 17:00:30
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Rachael and I took part in two events during the Malvern Week and had a wonderful time (she drives, I navigate. That way we stay on speaking terms!) We had so much mud on and in the car on Tuesday ,you would have thought we had just done the 'Exeter' in January! The price you pay for cycle wings.
Seriously though, we do a number of VSCC events and are always made very welcome.
Mark- Rachael says she wants to try Sprints now the PB is blown!! |
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peterfenichel
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 17:08:39
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I hope this does not sound like the ultimate whinge from a Triple-M owner and competitor... but from my perspective the main Club has largely "lost interest" in pre-war Triple-M cars. While the Triple-M Register does a quite commendable job of supporting MMM ownership and activities the main Club, I'm afraid from my perspective, treats pre-war owners and competitors as a nuisance that require some toleration but clearly does not provide much interest from an increasingly commercial perspective save for a necessary link back to the actual origins and history of MG. Why work and incur much extra expense to attract 30 or 40 ôold carsö to an event when you can organise ôMG LIVEö and attract 5,000 MGB owners?
The main Club largely fails to support any competitive activity directed at MMM cars (of late left to a few more enthusiastic regional centres) and the once a year Kimber Trophy Race while now on its own for pre war race cars (having previously been combined with T Types) clearly does not get the support and encouragement which such interesting and valuable cars deserve. Pre-war racing, hill climbs and sprints have effectively been seeded over to the VSCC and more "commercial" enterprises such as Motor Racing Legends and the Peter Auto organised events (Le Mans Classic, et al). This yearÆs Kimber Trophy Race organisation was a mess; with the original event entry indicating a Saturday practise and race... on the Monday before the MG weekend final competitive regulations called for a mid day Friday qualifying session and a late Saturday afternoon race, turning a one day commitment into a close to three day effort. When objections were raised by competitors the most the Club could come up with was to transfer blame onto the Silverstone Circuit and to profess an inability to provide any real solution; save for the glaring fact that the invited Morgan club and the Austin crowd got the Saturday morning practise sessions they had been promised. Not to mention the usual (quite tiresome) fight to organise paddock space adequate to park these historic cars together and provide an interesting display for attendees... IÆm sure the Club would defend this by pointing out that paddock space was allocated. IÆd of course welcome someone from the main Club to watch the reality as we tried to do that on the Thursday afternoon pushing around MGB, Midget and Morgan car owners!
Frankly, I am not suggesting we be treated ôfairlyö and take the odd swing and round-about. I am actually suggesting ôpreferential treatmentö!! Why? Quite simply the MG cars that make up the history of this marque are increasingly rare and, in my humble judgement, are one hell of a lot more interesting at a race event (even one as æmodernÆ oriented) such as MG Live. It is simply going to become harder to encourage Triple-M owners to bring their cars out; either to race or compete in any form. Unless the MGCC ôgets itö and actually shows preference to MMM competitors we will simply ægo elsewhereÆ and avail ourselves of the alternatives that are increasingly available. What a shame if the Kimber Trophy Race is lost (this year we went from 22 cars on the grid to 18 simply owing to the screw up in organisation and a, not unreasonable, refusal of some competitors to alter their travel and other arrangements at the last minute). If the MGCC actually wants to have these cars shine at an important annual event they are going to have to create an atmosphere which encourages participation, not fair but preferential treatment, to those who spend the time and not inconsiderable amount of money to use Triple-M cars on competition.
Peter Fenichel |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3677 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 21:42:19
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Prompted by Peter Scott's comment, I can report that Gill and I attended no fewer than 5 days of the VSCC Malvern celebration, and it might have been more but for the fact that our son's wedding coincided with the Prescott weekend
The entire Malvern event was pretty free and easy, the main focus being on the individual events on each of the days - sprints, versatility events, touring assemblies etc etc. with a strong emphasis on the sociable aspect. My constitution has just about recovered from all that good living....
The final day was likewise fairly casual and whilst Peter is correct in stating that some specific marques or sections were allocated parking areas on the final day, I do not know whether this was by VSCC invitation or by some other - perhaps ad hoc - means. Possibly the latter. By no means were all makes accorded this treatment and the limited number of Triple-M cars that turned up would probably not have warranted a special area anyway, though we were "properly" displayed in the VSCC eligible car park along with other well-regarded cars and Rileys .
There were very many other exotic and peculiar vehicles present: light and cycle cars including a brace of Bedeleias as well as a 1 litre air-cooled V twin 1923 Temporino Torino in which I was lucky enough to have a go.
As far as I am concerned, our cars were made most welcome at all times and there was nothing but praise for our presence, presentation and performance!
Regards
Dick Morbey, PA/B 0743 |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 22:23:20
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| We seem to have 2 topics in one thread. |
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 01:09:21
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Peter Fenichel has raised some very valid points, I do agree with him when he says ôI do think there is now very little evidence that the VSCC is anything other than welcoming to our Triple-M MGÆsö. I however do not agree with all his comments about the MG Car Club. The Main Club organises very few events, the majority of events, with the exception of race meeting, are organised by Centres or Registers so his comment ôthe main Club has largely ælost interestÆ in pre-war Triple-M carsö is not really justified unless he is only referring to race meetings. If he is only referring to race meetings the answer is in our own hands, there are not enough people racing Triple-M cars. I for one have more or less given up racing for various reasons but I do still race in the Kimber Trophy, I could name at least ten people who have retired from racing in the last five years.
I do agree there were difficulties with qualifying for the Kimber Trophy race this year, the entry form stated that qualifying would be on Saturday morning and the race would be in the afternoon as usual. Yes we were told in the final Regs that qualifying had been changed to Friday. After complaints from several competitors I took the matter up with the race organisers and they agreed that the competitors who could not get to Silverstone in time for Friday qualifying could either qualify æout of sessionÆ on Saturday morning or if they did not want to do that they could withdraw their entry and the Club would refund their entry fee in full. PeterÆs figures of the grid being reduced from 22 to 18 are not correct, yes 22 cars were originally entered, one competitor withdrew his entry because of the change of the qualifying time and another withdrew his entry because he had broken his car the previous weekend, this left 20 car taking part in the race not 18.
I do agree with Peter about the paddock layout, this has always been a problem for as long as I have been competing. There is always a plan of the paddock supplied with the final Regs with a request that the various races park in their allotted area, this never happens. I agree there were several non Triple-M cars in our allotted area this year and they would not move when asked to do so and this did spoil æourÆ area, I would like the race organisers to police this aspect of the meeting much more thoroughly.
It would be very nice if the Triple-M cars did get more preferential treatment at Silverstone, I think we already do get preferential treatment of sorts because if the racing was arranged on purely commercial grounds there would not be a Triple-M race at all because there are not enough Triple-M racers to fill a grid, we can only just about manage a half full grid when we allow other similar cars into our race. The race organisers did listen to our concerns when they combined the Kimber Trophy race with the T type race - we have got our own race back again despite the Club potentially æloosingÆ over ú3500 in race entry fees (the difference between our entries and a full grid).
A couple of years ago the MGCC offered to put on at least three Triple-M races during the course of the year provided we could produce a half decent grid, we could not, there were no more than six people wanting to enter the races so the races did not happen û the offer was there from the MGCC.
There are obviously more events organised by the VSCC that are suitable for our cars than are organised by the MGCC because the VSCC by and large only cater for pre-war cars whereas the MGCC has to cater for all ages of cars. If I was a VSCC member and owned an MGB, I could complain that they did not organise many events for me.
Peter.
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peterfenichel
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 10:53:22
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At the risk of sounding a bit pedantic I only counted 18 MG's on the grid for this year's Kimber Trophy Race and the qualifying/race results I believe only show the 18 (I am not counting the Wolsey or the Rapier) so it may be more accurate to say we lost only 2 or 3 cars to the organisation problems; but that does not mean those who did race, like myself, were at all happy with the way in which the event came together... having said that I largely agree with Peter Green's overall tone and comments. It is true that fewer race cars are available, clearly fewer today than the 26 or more cars we managed in the VSCC organised "all MG Race" in 2006. My point is just that if you have an interest in supporting Triple-M cars, which I do not believe the main MGCC has, you would go out of your way to both subsidise that and treat these older and clearly historic cars preferentially. I see little interest in the main Club doing that however given their commercial bent and their focus on post war modern style racing. Filling grids of MGB's many of which have sponsorship and other forms of financial support is clearly more commercially viable. The real issue for the MGCC is do they want to go out of their way to support, as best they can, the actually history of their Marque or will they be satisfied in a few years time (or sooner) with no Triple-M race and at best photos of pre war MG's hung in the Club tent at Silverstone as a substitute for real cars who are conspicuous by their absence?
Peter Fenichel |
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John James
United Kingdom
963 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 17:44:00
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The folowing was sent to me by Ron Gammons:
John
Thank you for sight of the MMM forum postings. I am replying to you so that you can post the response since I am not registered on their forum and it seems a few days may or would go by before I could if I wanted to comment directly.
I think Peter Green who does so much for MMM Register and activities has said a lot of what needed to be said. However perhaps a few comments might not be amiss
I would on behalf of the racing side and from knowledge of other competitive and non competitive activities refute totally Peter Fenichel's suggestion that the Main Club does not care about the MMM. Nothing but nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed Peter Green has confirmed that we have tried to put on more races for them without success due to their lack of support, we have despite the loss of income to the Club ensured that they have their own race at Silverstone; it's noteworthy that Peter Green has to work jolly hard to get the grids that do appear.
Speaking of other activities only last year the MMM were given pride of place in the main advertising and the marquee for the terrific display of K3s, which we were all delighted to see. This year the main Club assisted with a marquee for the L and N display along with a separate dedicated track display during the premier Saturday lunch time for those cars . There were opportunities for MMM members to take part in all the other activities at Silverstone including the Sprint, California Cup, Gymkhana, Concours etc. The Arena was also available for display and commentary. MMM members can if they wish also take part in many many events around this country and abroad under the auspices of MGCC if they so wish
As for the other comments yes paddock space is always a problem, much caused by obdurate refusal to park trailers on the Copse runway allowing more space within the paddock proper.
The timetable did get altered a number of times, one of the causes was that at the closing date we had just over half the entry that ultimately took part, we were also thrown a curved ball by Silverstone in that what had been the practice for the past twenty years was suddenly changed in that Sunday race time had to have a forty minute lunch break which we have never run before. We certainly didn't want to alter the time table once let alone the seven versions that we had to. We are sorry that it caused a problem, Peter Green was aware of the circumstances and we did our very level best to accommodate anybody who could not be there for the last practice on Friday [not midday!]. However none of that difficulty in my view excuses one MMM entrant accusing Steve Carr of being dishonest or of the other points that he put in a lengthy email he sent to half the world [OK maybe half the world is an exaggeration but it was a lot!]
What perhaps needs to be appreciated is that the Silverstone meeting is totally dependant on Club members and volunteers. For instance the Club has one paid official running the race meeting[s] that is Steve Carr who does a terrific job. The rest of us give up very significant tranches of our free time in order to ensure the success of Silverstone and many other events [and so that the MMM can have their own race.]
Perhaps the statement " ask not what your country can do for you, rather ask what you can do for your country "is worthy of consideration. A number of Registers and Centres regularly give up their enjoyment to provide the manpower to run things like the camping,California Cup, the Sprint etc. and the Club totally depends on this support.
Yes of course Silverstone has to be run on commercial lines, any meeting has to be. I can just see the web chat if it made substantial losses, would you have it any different??
Peter Fenichel has compared MGCC with the VSCC. We are of course very different Clubs, ours catering for a volume manufacturing range of cars from the Twenties to the present. Inevitably there are major differences in members needs and aspirations. MGCC has a annual membership fee of only ú34 [by DD] a monthly glossy magazine and more activities and meetings than any one person could possibly attend every month [if you want to] Our Overseas Centres provide many opportunities to meet people with similar interests around much of the world.
Of course MMM are important to MGCC..........as are ALL of our Centres,Register's,Championships,and the members without whom we have no Club, you are all part of one Club, one Heritage. Lets pull together and enjoy what we have
Best regards
Ron Gammons
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