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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2009 : 17:31:11
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So Bruce and Paul what is the best inhibitor to use?
I know that red coloured anti-freeze is a definite no-no but that blue anti-freeze is probably OK.
Peter |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1564 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 18:23:53
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Peter,
Paul, being a chemist, is better qualified than I to answer your question about corrosion inhibitor types.
For me, I would choose an antifreeze from a reputable vehicle manufacturer BUT choosing one who makes engines with a cast iron cylinder block as the inhibitors will be selected for a wider assortment of different metals which are in contact with the coolant.
Reason: Many modern engines and most modern radiators and heater cores are made from aluminium and these may have inhibitor formulations to suit the preponderance of aluminium.
For our Triple-M vehicles, I would use a VW Audi anti-freeze as many of their (diesel) engines still use cast iron blocks, but IÆm sure there are others meeting my suggested criteria.
Historically, Rolls-Royce developed an inhibitor formulation specifically for the aluminium block and heads in the Merlin and Griffon aero engines and this was specified for the V8-engined cars. This formulation was adopted as a British Standard û BS3150 (aluminium), BS3151 (cast iron), from memory.
BS3151 coolant corrosion inhibitor formulations were different. Modern readily available antifreezes have superceded these older British Standards.
Bruce. (PB0564) |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 19:52:15
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Bruce
Thanks for your reply.
From a thread on the VSCC forum and many other forums, there is a very sad tale of the owner of a concours RR Phantom III who used a modern antifreeze which contained OAT inhibitors which did ú6k damage to his car. Evidently older formula antifreezes use IAT inhibitors (inorganic rather than organic). So it is essential to check that any antifreeze which you put in your cooling system uses IAT inhibitors. Unfortunately the container does not normally tell you which inhibitors they use and you can no longer rely on the colour. And surprisingly the BS standard does not differentiate between the two.
I am currently using filtered rain water in my car. I am not worried about it freezing. Water does not freeze in my garage overnight. I would however like to add an inhibitor, when I can find one which is considered to be safe. Whenever someone recommends a product someone else raises problems with it. All very confusing to the uninitiated. 
Peter |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3238 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 20:57:32
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I have to agree with Peter, this is all very confusing with so many different preferences!
With regard to an anti freeze suitable for cast iron blocks, what about the water manifold and water pump both of which are aluminium!
I will check the antifreeze I have used - I think it was
Mobil which may be more suitable for aluminium engines? I was going to flush out the system and replace the coolant anyway.
I also add Bars Leaks the label of which states "Regular use minimises lime scale, sludge and corrosion deposits in aluminium and cast iron engines, whilst providing water pump lubrication and protection". It also states Bars Leaks is compatible with Anti-freeze and all normal automotive cooling sysytem components.
I use tap water from the house system which has a water softener.
George
I had to part drain the rad when I put the thermostat in and the coolant was nice and clear, also the water manifold showed no signs of corrosion. |
Edited by - George Eagle on 09/11/2009 10:38:14 |
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ronald
Switzerland
35 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 08:54:31
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Please bare in mind that the additive to the cooling water has more than one purpose. One is preventing freezing, however for our engines also important is the anticorrosion, as we have an open system. Not to worry that much about the cast Iron, but the coreplugs car rot away rather soon when not protected!
Ronald |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 10:47:01
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I asked the Bluecol technical department whether or not their antifreeze contained OAT or IAT. Their reply was as follows:
"Our 2 year Bluecol Antifreeze is non IAT or OAT or HOAT & will be suitable for you.
Our 5 year Bluecol Antifreeze has OAT technology & therefore wouldn't be suitable."
So perhaps 2 year Bluecol is the answer. Or does someone have a different view? 
Peter |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1564 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 12:03:02
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George, a premium antifreeze from VW-Audi or Mercedes (and doubtless many others) will have corrosion inhibitors suited for cast iron engine blocks and aluminium - nearly all modern heat exchangers have aluminium cores - also copper/brass.
I tend to be wary of the claims of independent brands, particularly when know that for the extended warrantees on modern vehicles the manufacturers' endurance tests and chemical laboratories go to very detailed extensive approval procedures before releasing for production and service.
Peter, I sense that you have an aversion to antifreeze, understandable for those living parts of the world where it never drops below freezing, but in northern europe logic would suggest antifreeze use. Any small reduction in heat transfer properties is more than compensated for with a thoroughly clean coolant system plus a water pump and electric fan. And for me, fitting a thermostat without a water pump would be illogical.
Bruce. (PB0564) |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 13:08:22
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Bruce
Yes you are correct in your assumption. I do not like adding any chemicals to the cooling system unless I know that they will be beneficial and there is no possibility of them doing harm. Many (most) of the modern antifreezes (generally red in colour but not always) which contain OAT are definitely NOT suitable for our cars. So if I do decide to use antifreeze I will certainly get positive proof that it does not contain OAT. I think that one of the various problems with the RR Phantom was that the antifreeze attacked some of the gaskets which contained silicone. The owner reported thus:
"After about 4 weeks I noticed damp patches on the floor beneath the engine. Further investigation revealed that coolant was leeching from almost every possible joint: both radiator top hoses, both radiator bottom hoses, the Calorstat joint in the header tank, drain tap joint in the bottom tank plus the weep holes in the block. Tightening joints and hose clips had no effect."
After a long battle the manufacturer of the antifreeze paid the owner compensation. They had stated that their new advanced antifreeze was suitable for older cars.
I am convinced that whilst we should use good quality products we should not put "advanced" antifreeze in our cars.
Peter
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F0355
South Africa
298 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 15:54:09
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What's the opinion here about adding a cup or two of water soluble oil [as used in lathes/milling machines etc as a coolant] into the radiator. Told to me by a long standing owner [+50 yrs] of a prewar MG, no names mentioned  Apparently keeps it absolutely rust free and no risk to mixed materials [ali/cast iron] as used in our engines.
Peter Steyn
Johannesburg, RSA
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PaulusPotter
Netherlands
202 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 19:20:48
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Hello Peter,
Although I am not a chemist as some suppose, I suspect that putting in just ordinary oil in water might lead to other problems over a longer period. Just mind what additives are in the oil and how do they react with water. Beside most oils may tend to polimerize after some time and will give settlement in the stagnant zones of the cooling system.
As some others propose I guess it is wise to use a coolant in stead of diluted anti freeze. The coolants used by car manufacturers for diesel engines seem to me the more usefull ones for the older cars, but this is only related to the suitability for combined cast iron and aluminium parts. Best we ask Volkswagen or others.
Paul |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3372 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2010 : 18:42:37
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Most of the anti-freeze / inhibitor concoctions available in the US seem to contain ethylene glycol and diethylene glycol. There is also one called DEX-COOL that is made for engines with cast iron blocks but that have aluminum radiators. That contains in addition sodium 2-ethyl hexonate and sodium neodecanoate. Is that IAT or OAT? Is it OK to use in our engines?
Nick
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2010 : 20:37:05
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This subject has been discussed at length, twice, on the VSCC forum. One of the members, who like me is nervous of using antifreeze but wanted an inhibitor, recommended Miller's 'Extra cool'. I have decided to try this product. It does not contain OAT, IAT nor HOAT. The reason I am going to try it, is that it contains inhibitors for protetcion against corrosion. It does not provide any protection against freezing. As its name suggests, it improves cooling, which is useful for those of us who do not have a fan.
See http://www.millersoils-online.co.uk/M3_cgi/millers2.cgi?product_id=55&exact_match=on&type=motorsport&cart_id=
If I felt the need for anti-freeze, I would use Bluecol 2 year anti-freeze, which blue in colour. I am reliably informed that it does not contain any nasties.
Peter |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3372 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2010 : 21:50:51
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Thank you Peter
About the only place in the world you can't get it is the US!
Nick
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. |
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