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pauly45
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
 Posted - 01/02/2011 : 20:47:14
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Hi,
I figured the process of getting the PA engine into a useable engine is going to take some time, so thought it would be good to make a start.
The only problem is I don't know where to start !
Currently it's completely in bits - not sure if everything is there.
The crank is rusty - I suspect a new one will be required, but how do I tell ?
The head definitely has a crack between a couple of the valve seats - repairable ??
There is apparently a new set of pistons and liners somewhere.
The block has the numbers 1591A, 135P stamped on a flat section on the side - is this PA ??
What are the general steps to take - what should be the first task ?
Who can I approach to do things like the white metalling etc, and how much is practical to do ourselves ?
So many questions .....!
Many thanks
Paul.
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mgptype
United Kingdom
709 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2011 : 21:32:01
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Hi Paul
The block you have with your numbers is a PA block.
Unless you have access to a machine shop, you will need to have any machining done by a competent machinist.
You should be able to assemble the engine yourself with a little care.
First you will need to measure the crank journals to see if they are serviceable with a re grind then have the crank crack tested.
If all is well, get it done. I was recommended by someone on this forum to use B.B.R. Engineering Limited. Sumner Road, Hepworth, Diss, Norfolk IP22 2PZ . They have done a lot of work on my engine including pressure testing re bore, block re surfacing and are very competent. They also sorted out my cracked head and pressure tested it.
They use a SERDI CNC cylinder head machine to do the work.
I have also used JEL bearings when I had my rods and mains re metalled, they are very reasonable with price and do a good job. http://www.jelbearings.co.uk/jel_prices.php
Check out Andrew Bradshaw's excellent artical in the 2008 Triple M Year book "Re Building a Pre War OHC Engine (this is worth the price of the book alone)
I have got an engine in bits at the moment if you need to look at one.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Fred… |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1723 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2011 : 22:38:43
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Two invaluable references
Malcolm Green's book on the 4 cylinder cars and G Howell's restoration guide to the J Type.
Also your nearest MMM MG neighbour/ noggin and natter etc
Where abouts are you?
Good God! I have just seen the price of Malcolm Green's book on Amazon! over £200!!!! Forget about that! Noggin and Natter I suggest.
Cheers
P |
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KevinH
United Kingdom
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 09:18:45
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Hi Paul,
Try Surelock http://www.castingrepairs.com for your cylinder head. Nick is very helpful, and should be able to repair the crack, pressure test the head and seal any leakage. He knows MMM heads very well. My cylinder head has just come back from Surelock after sealing and pressure testing.
When my PA engine was in bits, I did all the work on the head myself (apart from fitting new guides & line boring the cam bearings). It is not difficult, just needs care and attention to detail, and teaches you a lot about why getting the head right is so important to a MMM engine. I had a specialist build the bottom end, but overhauled all the ancilliary bits myself. I found it very satisfying to make progress on the head & ancillaries while waiting for progress (and funds) on the bottom end.
Regards,
Kevin |
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Colin McLachlan
United Kingdom
991 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 10:27:28
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Paul,
If your crankshaft is cracked, I have one with 4 conrods which was fine when I replaced it with a Phoenix one for some light competition work. It has covered about 90,000 miles, has not been crack tested, but rings true when tapped! If you are interested email me sometime and we can discuss how best to proceed.
Colin
PA 0613 - MG3242 |
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pauly45
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 19:10:53
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Thanks for all the guidance.
For companies like Surelock and BBR Engineering for the head - in what condition do they expect to receive the head in, and in what state should I expect to get it back in ?
I guess I'm specifically thinking about things like rust, crud in waterways etc.
Will they clean up the head, repair the crack, re-cut vavle seats etc ?
Similar question with the block - can I just hand over a block that has rust, paint etc and expect to get back something "clean" ?
Should the con-rods be crack tested too ?
Colin - Thank you - I'll measure up the crank journals first and see if that one has any life in it.
Out of curiosity, is there any way to tell what car the engine originally belonged to ?? |
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mgptype
United Kingdom
709 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 20:58:50
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Paul,
Any good machine shop will chemically clean waterways in blocks and heads but not sure of removing the paint on the outside. I did my own using paint stripper. I had a crack between the valve seats but opted to have hardened seats fitted rather than repair them and you can use un leaded petrol without the worry of valve seat recession.
The con rods should also be crack tested with the crankshaft as they can fail.
Fred.. |
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Gordon
United Kingdom
692 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 06:27:24
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In the P type head there is very little metal to support valve seat inserts. Is there any history or experience of them failing in use by cracking or coming loose?
Gordon |
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KevinH
United Kingdom
156 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 09:15:01
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Paul,
With Surelock, I simply removed the head from the block, stripped it down, and dropped it in to them.
It came back via courier well packed (and insured), but with the added filth of ceramic sealing and pressure testing all over it. I'm currently cleaning and decarbonising it prior to giving the valves a very light grind, then a thorough clean prior to re-assembly.
Surelock will fit new valve seats as a way of repairing the crack between the valves. If your valve seats are badly pocketed, you may want to have all the valve seats replaced.
Regards,
Kevin |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 09:37:43
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Original car identity for engine?
When you get a copy of your chassis' build sheet from the MGCC, they - or the Registrar - can also look up the engine on the works list of chassis / engine pairings.
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pauly45
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 12:50:55
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So, I think my approach for the should be :
For cylinder head.
1. De-rust. Any issues with extremely fine aluminium oxide blasting for this ? I'm accepting that all the valve seats are shot, as are the valve guides.
2. Get crack repaired. Does Surelock only repair P Type heads using replacing valve seats, or do they use their stitching method at all. I guess that as the valve seats have probably had it - the replace valve seats is the best option to go for. I assue they will advise.
3. Have head skimmed - who ? BBR Engineering ?
4. Have valve guides fitted - who ? BBR Engineering ?
5. Get cam stands etc ready such that when block is white metalled, the head can be done at the same time ?
ta da - a "new" head !!!?? (kinda)
For the block, crank and con rods.
1. Clean and de-rust.
2. Measure crank journals and establish if there is any life in it.
3. Crack test crank and con rods
now, what next -
4. Have block skimmed, bores "done". (anyone had experience of fitting liners in P-Type blocks ?
5. Have white metalling of main bearings and con rods done.
or other way round ?
Does this sound like most of what I need to do to get those two bits to a useable state ?
Thanks everyone - this is a bit different to my previous A series engine experience !
Paul. |
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Robin Hamblett
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 14:55:09
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1591AP was originally in PA 1450
Regards
Robin |
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Robin Hamblett
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 14:56:13
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Sorry I meant PA 1350
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mgptype
United Kingdom
709 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 19:28:43
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BBR engineering replaced my guides with Colsibro Valve Guides that I supplied from S&V, they also skimmed the head and block.
I have suggested using BBS Engineering as they are closer to where you live in Colchester than Surelock in Rutland.
It's your choice but I would suggest that you give them both a call and compare them.
Before you start having the block and head machined I would have them both pressure tested.
They are over 75 years old and many are porous and leak or have suffered in the pats with frost damage.
Just after Christmas I found I had a crack in the water jacket in the block and had to take the engine out again.
Fred.. |
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pauly45
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 13:01:13
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| Thanks Nigel - I will take a look when I'm measuring it up. |
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