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BobRichards RIP
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2011 : 19:31:32
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During trial reassembly of a P type that I bought part-dismantled, I'm having difficulty with vertical alignment of the front wings and running boards with reference to the bonnet closing panel (labelled P on the photo). The closing panel P is getting on for an inch lower than the natural line of the wing piping as it runs from the running board and along the wing. Should the wing piping step down when it reaches the closing panel or are the wing and running board too high?
The wings are apparently original, whilst the running boards were replacements bought by the previous owner many years ago. The running boards have flanges at the bottom of their legs and I'm assuming that these flanges should locate snugly immediately below the body panel, thus governing the height of the running board. Please could someone provide a measurement for the height of the running board from the lower edge of the body, or advise me where I'm going wrong.
Note: If I pack up the closing panel so that it is as high as the wing piping, the bonnet catch 'loops' are far too high. If I lower the run of the wing piping along the wing, the piping prevents the wing from going close enough to the body to allow horizontal alignment with the running board.
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Edited by - BobRichards RIP on 03/10/2011 19:32:55 |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 20:25:11
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Hello Bob,
The front wing usually has a curved profile, so there is no really hard edge or defined crease in the wing where it abuts the bonnet board (the closing panel). That means that the wing piping can take up whatever position it needs to. The wing itself is bolted into the body in about three places near to its rearward end, and this can help in positioning it more snugly to the bonnet board.
A supporting vertical sheet metal panel is usually fitted at the bottom of the body tub (inboard from the ply covering) in the area below the trafficators, and the aforemntioned bolts pass through this metal support panel. It does give a lot of rigidity and can be helpful in clamping the wing into the desired alignment vis a vis the body tub.
It is also located to the bonnet board with three woodscrews - around 1.25 to 1.5" in length - probably Number 6s. This also helps to hold things together a bit.
Looking at your picture the wing and running board seem rather high. There seems to be almost no gap between the running board and the bottom of the door. The running board is usually curved and follows the line of the door. On my PA (body by Steve Gilbert) there is a gap of roughly 2 inches between the top of the running board and the door opening in the body tub. (With the door closed the gap is obviously a bit less because the door edge overhangs the door aperture.)
The running boards do indeed have a flange to locate them at the bottom edge of the body tub. It's a bit tricky to measure them when fitted to the car, but the height of the front bracket on mine is approx 3 5/8" and the rear one is about 3 3/8" (in each case external dimensions).
Reverting to the fit of the wings - there is really only one fixed point, namely the foremost bolt hole at the very front of the chassis dumbiron. The wing is usually cut at an angle (rather thamn ending with a sharppoint) so that it fits snugly against the front dumbiron knuckle. In addition, the wing should have a cut out to allow space for the brake cable and its rectangular support bracket where this emerges from the chassis rail, so that may also offer a clue as to alignment.
Not to alarm you, but I bought a new pair of standard wings some years ago from one of our premier suppliers and when Steve Gilbert came to fit them onto the car they just didn't do so. He had to do some fairly costly fettling to make them fit.
It's said that the factory used fairly brutal methods to get things to line up and it may well be that you'll have to do likewise - but good luck, whatever you do.
Best wishes
Dick
PS
Another aid to help you judge the general alignment is of course the headlamp brackets that go between the wing and the brackets that emerge from the rad shall. |
Edited by - DickMorbey on 03/10/2011 20:32:54 |
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2568 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2011 : 23:58:12
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Dick,
I don't suppose there is any chance please of a rough sketch of your vertical sheet metal panel at the bottom of the tub? Both of the panel its self and of its approximate location. I am approaching this stage and don't recall such a panel on the original body.
Thanks in advance,
Dave |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 12:35:54
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Hmmm
bit off topic but my rather original late J has black gearbox and bellhousing....
Cheers
P |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
705 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 13:46:26
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Hello Bob,
Dick mentions "The running board is usually curved and follows the line of the door."
Quite correct and the photographs highlight one of the common errors with many reproduction running boards - they have been made straight  .
John R |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 13:51:43
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Dave
The drawing below can be seen on Barry Walker's website (all rights acknowledged) at http://www.barrywalker.com/cat.asp?cat=42
I have circled the two areas of the body in which strengthening steel panels were inserted by Steve Gilbert when he put my PA body together. It's of a similar gauge steeel to the steel panels at the back of the body tub that support the rear end of the floorboards.
The best way I can describe it is to say that it's a flat sheet, shaped to fit into the space between the horizontal spar and the two nearly vertical wooden members. It has a lip on three sides so that it can be pinned to these members and its flat face is towards the exterior of the body. It's therefore part of a sandwich consisting of the exterior steel panel, the plywood skin and then this panel that I'm talking about.
I'd guess that the panel is about 5-6 inches in height
Best wishes
Dick |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1579 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 14:58:48
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Bob, a side elevation view showing the curvature of the front wing blending into the running board and height below the lower edge of the door is shown in the factory photo:
[size=1] [/size=1
Note that the running board has a slight cuvature flowing through from that on the wing.
In plan view the outer edges of the front wing, running board, and rear wing should be in a straight line i.e. co-planar or more simply for non-engineering types, place the side of the vehicle against a flat vertical surface and all the above should touch it!
Needless to say I'm stuggling to achieve all these criteria in my rebuild 
Bruce. (PB0564) |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 15:56:49
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Good discussion! I'm struggling with a similar issue on PA1169.
Could someone tell me the distance from the door opening, both at the front and rear of the door opening, to the bottom edge of the body? The reason I ask is that the running boards that came with the car have vertical legs which seem to hang down well below the bottom edge of the body.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2568 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 19:40:15
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Many thanks Dick for your additions to Barry's drawing and your very full description. Am I right in thinking from this that this is a Steve Gilbert mod? I perhaps misunderdstood from your first post that it was MG original?
Dave |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2011 : 23:11:33
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Hello Dave
I think it must be a SG mod, and a good one too! It prevents the nuts and washers from digging into the wood.
He does other, almost undetectable mods, such as a tiny bracing piece of steel in one of the end bonnet louvres to avoid this panel from distorting.
Best wishes
Dick |
Edited by - DickMorbey on 04/10/2011 23:12:43 |
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BobRichards RIP
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2011 : 17:35:40
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Many thanks to all who have replied to my query but I still have one remaining puzzle,although my door aperture to running board dimension is about the 2 inches (maximum) that Dick has described.
The wing piping that runs along the running board top and along the rear part of the inboard face of the wing runs well above the level of the bonnet board (see photos). Should it plunge down to the level of the bonnet board or have I got the relative levels of the wing and bonnet board way out
of line? |
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BobRichards RIP
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2011 : 17:39:19
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Brian,
The gearbox on my car is indeed black (only because I have painted it that colour. The engine is red (painted by Mike Dowley).
You may conclude (quite rightly) that I am either a vandal or just not a stickler for originality! |
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Terry Andrews
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 11:06:16
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Hi Bob,
If I may add to what has been said before. It is my view that to get a Triple-M swept wing car looking right is one of the hardest tasks for a home restorer. I think it added 2 years for me to get the wings and running board looking somewhere near right all those years ago. Having done a TF 1500 and helped on several TC’s, they are much easier. The issue is that there are few reference points to work on compared to later models. Added to which when you have reproduction parts and new ashframes from different suppliers more variables are added to the mix!!!! In my view there is NO WAY A BOUGHT RUNNING BORD WILL FIT AND LOOK RIGHT of the shelf.
1 First the body tub can be fitted back and forth on the chassis depending on who made the body this could vary by 11/2””. Fitting the Radiator in the centre of the support bracket holes and fitting the original bonnet top and later the sides. If you are having a new bonnet made then I think I would do the wings first but I have only ever done this with original bonnets.
2 To get the wings looking right you really need to do an initial fit before a first fit because of all the variables. This I would do BEFORE the body is panelled.
3 Move the body along the chassis to where you think it should be.
4 Then get your rear wings and trial fit into the body frame making “packers” to allow for the thickness of the metal skinning and wing piping.
5 Now stand well away from the car as far as possible and look at the wheel in relation to the rear wing. ALL ours and TABC’s have the rear wheel forward see works photo posted by Bruce. You will usually need to carve away wood the get this looking right.
6 Having got the side view right now you need the back view. You will need to move the rear wing in and out to get the point of the rear wing in the centre of the tyre. You will most likely carry out steps 5&6 several times!!!!! But also see 7!!!!
7 The rotational position of the wing within the wheel arch also needs be determined. The starting point is the Tank Position angle in relation to inner wheel faring and they really should be the same angle. This may give you the initial position of the front of the rear wing to be just below the running board. So much trial and error between 5.6&7 !!!
8 Then do the other rear wing and get symmetry so that both points of the rear wings are at the same height when viewed from the side. Both points in the centre of the tyres!!
9 Now you will need to do a similar thing with the front wing!!! Start with the head lamp sport bracket parallel to the ground. If you can have a few friends to hand as the front wings are more difficult to handle by yourself!!. You can pack the underside of the wing and other places to start to achieve the fit you are looking for. You are looking for symmetry at the front and the end of the front wing looking if extended will flow to the bottom of the rear wing whilst at the same time having the side of the front wing in line with the side of the rear wing.
10 Only when that is achieved can a concaved running board be made to fit in the space from the rear of the front wing to the front of the rear wing....... Terry A
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Widung
Sweden
189 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 10:50:25
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Dick Morbey: Is it perhaps the plate described in www.mgmmm.com under "All kind of articles..." and then row 37 you'll find "Body details P" - text in dutch, but the body sketch and detail drawing of plate shows what you describe?
Terry: Excellent advices!
Jan Widung
PB0635 |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 17:11:23
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Hello Jan
I have looked at the drawing you mention but it does not show the metal support panel I mentioned in my earlier posting. It is in fact an interior draught excluder trim panel.
The bracket I was referring to is invisible when the car is panelled and is fitted on the inside of the body panel that goes behind the front scuttle/drainage panel and in front of the wooden strut (A post?) in front of the door.
Best wishes
Dick |
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BobRichards RIP
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 10:11:35
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| Thanks Terry for your very comprehensive posting. Your car certainly has brilliant panel fit and shows what I can be achieved. |
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