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Cymber
United Kingdom
966 Posts |
 Posted - 27/02/2012 : 21:55:31
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I have to make a replacement dashboard for my PA and have a few questions:-
Can anyone supply a paper template?
What thickness ply should I use?
Is it best to laquer before cutting the holes? It would be easier to rub down that way.
Where can I obtain suitable Sequoia veneer?
What is the reccommended laquer?
Maurice Blakey. |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2012 : 22:56:16
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I have asked the various people who appear at MG events and retail shiny fascia boards, whether they would make PA ones in sequoia veneer, as original, rather than the standard walnut, as used on the PB.
To a man, they have replied that sequoia is 'a CITES wood and we can't use it' / its use is banned'.
Despite that, it seems to be for sale on the 'net.
Perhaps someone knows why MG switched from sequoia to walnut.
Bob. |
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LewPalmer
USA
3242 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 00:13:21
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Sequoia is the American giant redwood. Since early in the 20th century, cutting the giant redwood has been banned due to the scarcity of the remaining trees.
However, I have found a source of burl redwood. Google "Certainly Wood" in New York state. They have some from which I made my PA dash.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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Gordon
United Kingdom
691 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 07:00:58
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The dashboard on my PB was original. I had the veneer checked by time served craftsmen ex RR Crewe. After close examination they pronounced it as definitely not burr walnut but burr elm and produced from their stock sheets of veneer that were a close match to the original in size of whorl and detail appearance. To me it looked like burr walnut! I wonder if burr elm is often used and passed off as burr walnut?
Gordon
PB 0331, MG4473
Derby
PS I was told that you should veneer the back with beech so that when the front is veneered there will be no distortion due to contraction of the glue holding the veneers being balanced. |
Edited by - Gordon on 28/02/2012 10:48:54 |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3677 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 08:18:28
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Maurice
The following present is my posting made on Christmas Day 2008:
PAs had sequoia-veneer applied to a roughly half inch thick plywood. The dashboard was not solid and the ply on mine was rather flaky - definitely not marine ply!
Sequoia was discontinued with the introduction of the PB, as the harvesting of the sequoia tree was banned by the authorities. (The giant redwoods were an endangered species even in those days!) Thus the PB dash was veneered in walnut.
When I re-made my PA dashboard in 2000 I obtained Redwood burl veneer from EV Exports of Bourne End, Buckinghamshire. They were able to supply these in "bookmatch" form (i.e. like the centre pages of a book so the veneers are a matching pair. Cost GBP 20 !
When last checked EV were still in business at Unit 10, Wooburn Industrial Park, Wooburn Green, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire HP10 0PE
Tel: +44 (0)1628 850066
Dick Morbey
PA/PB 0743
Henley-on-Thames, Oxon, UK |
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pauly45
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 19:43:09
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I too have been recently thinking about making a dash panel for my PA, so would be very interested if there are any paper patterns available.
What is the general overall rectangular size that would be required if I needed to purchase a piece of veneer to make a dash ?
Burr Walnut seems quite easy to come by : www.valeveneers.co.uk/bv.html
Burr Elm available here by the looks of it : www.capitalcrispin.com/elm_european.aspx
And potentially Sequoia : www.capitalcrispin.com/vavona_burr.aspx |
Edited by - pauly45 on 28/02/2012 20:01:52 |
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Horst Wendling
Germany
464 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 20:25:39
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Pauly,
you must have min. 95 cm in length and 30 cm in hight overall.
I had just ordered Sequoia veneer this evening.
From my experience with a TD- and a P-type dashbord, i will first make laminating, later the holes and the finish - form of outline.
The best way for cutting is a shape and a router machine.
Horst
PA492 |
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pauly45
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 20:39:55
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On a related subject, my father remembers a pretty good article in "Safety Fast" that covered veneering dashboards.
It apparently detailed where to get good veneers from too, and maybe covered the final finish.
Unfortunately he can't remember which copy it was in, although he thinks was within the last 5 years.
Does anyone happen to remember the article, or even better know which date magazine it was in.
He'll have the magazine somewhere......
Thanks
Paul.
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2538 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 22:53:01
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I bought from Capital Crispin who were very helpful and supplied "book-matched" veneer as previously mentioned. This is essential for the correct effect.
They also gave me quite few off-cuts to practise with & supplied a sheet of glue on a backing. The idea is you place it on the work & wait till SWMBO is out then use her warm iron to transfer the glue which is thus very easily applied in the essential thin even layer. The veneer is then positioned, the backing sheet is placed on top of it for protection & again ironed to activate the glue.
To achieve the book matching, the centre line is very carefully marked & the two leaves positioned overlapping at the centre before being cut through with a very sharp blade
In the end I chickened out & took the panel & veneer to a guy on Shoreham Harbour in West Sussex & he did it for me.
He took one look & said "that's not sequoia, it's vavona". Looking at your link Paul it would appear he's right, but it's clearly also described as what we want.
I agree with Horst; cut the holes & then finish; you want all edges sealed against damp.
As for finish itself, I followed the advice of Wheatley & Morgan in The Restoration of Vintage & Thoroughbred Cars & used cellulose polish. This is rather like spraying your bodywork. You spray multiple coats of clear cellulose sanding sealer rubbing back as you would the paint.
I have also been advised to veneer the back but have to confess I have not.
I don't remember the article you mention Paul however in a day or two could email you an article from Practical Classics & also I'm sure Gordon would not object(??) as I have it scanned already, if I sent you something he wrote, I think in the Octagon Car Club mag.
I think that's enough rambling for now!
Dave
PS though; if you've never seen raw veneer before, you're in for a surprise. It looks just like old rags! |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3677 Posts |
Posted - 28/02/2012 : 23:08:32
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The Safety Fast story was by Gordon Higginbotham in October 2009 and read as follows:
VENEERING - AN AMATEUR’S ATTEMPT Gordon Higginbotham recently contacted me to recount the experience he gained whilst restoring the dashboard of his PB. The lessons learned have relevance beyond Triple-M cars, so read on ………
The dashboard on my car - PB 0331 - had over the years been modified with extra holes and incorrect instruments. The veneer was cracked and lifting in places and the plywood backing was beginning to delaminate. Whilst it would have been possible to fill holes and reduce their diameter for correct instruments, and then re-veneer, the condition of the plywood meant the decision was taken to renew the whole lot. A long search for a supply of the burr walnut led me to a small firm in Cheshire, Chapman & Cliff tel: 01270 842151, who suggested that I visit them with my old dashboard so that they could select the veneer to match as closely as possible. Whilst I have no connection with this firm, other than that of a customer, I can happily recommend them. They are friendly, extremely helpful and know their subject having learnt their trade with Rolls-Royce Motors at Crewe. They examined the old dashboard and after sanding pronounced that the veneer was not burr walnut but was, in fact, burr elm which is now rare! The thickness and use of animal glue meant that there was no reason to assume that this was not the original finish. (I should explain that the car has all the correct matching numbers including the body where the number is also stamped into the body frame in the cowled area. So whilst it is generally accepted that conservation issues forced Abingdon to change from sequoia to burr walnut at least one car appears to have been given burr elm; are their any others?) They also pointed out that the veneer was in fact two matching sheets laid out in book fold design with the join vertical in the centre. From their stockpile of veneers they produced a pair of sheets that were very close to the originals in colour, pattern and burr size. It was at that stage that they asked if I had enough time so that they could go through the steps necessary to make a successful job. Over the next hour they took me through the basic process. As the sheets of veneer are anything but flat you have to flatten the sheets first. The veneer is first carefully wetted with hot water applied by a cloth all over. When supple the sheets are laid flat between 2 sheets of MDF and weighted over night until dry. The result is nice flat sheets.
Holding them up to the light you will be amazed at the number of holes and small splits. Each of these has to be individually treated. Firstly select which side is to be the finished face and make sure you have them the same way round! Remember you are going to produce a book-fold joint. On the finish face over each hole and split put a small piece of masking tape. Turn over and support area on a smooth flat piece of steel – the thicker the better as this is your anvil. Next wet each area that you are about to treat with a small amount of hot water and allow to soak in. Now take a light ball peen hammer (mot more than ˝ lb weight) and peen the area of the hole/crack. This spreads the wood fibres filling the defect and they are kept in place by the masking tape .They also advised that I should apply a cheap straight grained veneer to the back of your panel to start with so that distortion is balanced when you veneer the front! Firstly, you must get the clamping pressure even all over the board and on the full width boards like the P cars this requires many “G” clamps, which I don’t have. The professionals use a thick polythene bag that can be sealed and use a vacuum pump to evacuate the air thus allowing atmospheric pressure, at ~15psi, to be applied evenly all over the surface. If you don’t have one - fear not! What I did was to cut out all the holes in the new board first. I then made a clamp out of 18mm thick MDF planks just bigger than the dashboard and drilled some bolt holes centred on the holes in the new board to make use of those in the dashboard so that bolts could be used to provide the clamping pressure on assembly when you are bonding the veneer on. Much cheaper than the 15 or so G clamps that would have been needed. Once you have flattened out your sheets of veneer you then have to form the book end joint which will be vertical in the centre. All you need is a perfect steel straight edge and a sharp modeller’s knife. What you have to do is align the two veneer sheets one on top of the other (so that when you open them out - like a book - you have the mirror image about the centre line) and, using the straight edge as a guide, cut through both sheets at one go. You will now understand the emphasis on the quality of your straight edge for once you open the “book” you will have doubled any deviation from the straight with a resulting gap! The best glue to use is an exterior grade of PVA wood adhesive. Place the two sheets, after coating with adhesive on your board lining up the two halves on the vertical centre of your dashboard whilst ensuring that the patterns match perfectly on the join line. Now cover the surface firstly in a single layer of cling film, then a layer of foam polystyrene lining wallpaper and then clamp between your prepared MDF boards and allow to dry overnight. The cling film prevents any adhesive that comes through the veneer from bonding to your clamp and the soft polystyrene paper ensures even pressure is applied to your veneer. The next morning strip the board from your clamp and give a gentle sand to the veneer using a rubbing block and 80 grade dry paper to clean up the surface. Cut the excess veneer from the edges and holes of the board, always applying the cutting pressure from the front surface towards the back. You can use the same modeller’s knife to do this trimming if you wish. Smooth off the edges with sanding paper at the end. If you have missed any holes or cracks do not despair! Take some fragments of veneer and grind to powder, mix with a trace of glue to a paste and fill the hole and allow to thoroughly dry before gently sanding. The method I used to achieve the final finish was as follows. Use two part clear lacquer and apply either by brush or by spray. I used a brush. Apply 4 thick coats one after the other as soon as the previous coat is touch dry - about ten minutes - then leave at least 24 hours. Using a flat rubbing block ‘flat’ the surface to an even finish with 240 grade paper. Apply another 4 coats as before and again leave at least 24 hours. Again flat down using block and 240 paper. Apply another 4 coats as before and again leave but this time I would advise leaving for at least a week to fully harden off. The final finishing can now be carried out. Using your block again, flat down using 240 paper. Work in one direction only so all the scratches are parallel then proceed to the next finest grade of paper - 320 - but this time work at 90o until all the previous scratches have disappeared. Work through 400, 600, 800, 1000 grades in the same way turning through 90o each time and keep the paper surface fresh avoiding build up of material. Finally use 1500 grade paper, wet, very gently. The final very fine cutting scratches can be eliminated with a wax polish to give the required satin finish. Be careful not to over polish and get a high gloss finish!!
All materials are available from Chapman & Cliff at very reasonable costs and they also run 2 day courses and their advice really worked for me. It all worked out very much cheaper than getting someone else to do it and much more satisfying.
Dick Morbey
PA/PB 0743
Henley-on-Thames, Oxon, UK |
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Gordon
United Kingdom
691 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 05:47:42
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Very happy to have my article quoted! Let me know ow it went for you.
Gordon
PB 0331, MG4473
Derby
I attach a photon of the finished dashboard to complement Dick's post on the method I used.
Insert Image:  |
Edited by - Gordon on 29/02/2012 11:00:04 |
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george
United Kingdom
862 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 11:21:44
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| Having done a couple of dashboards [a TC and recently my N]both in walnut veneer I found my usual choice of PVA did not work well, so much so I had to strip it off.I then used contact adhesive [carefull positioning needed] with great success .I did the TC 15+ years ago and its still looking good Geoff |
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Gordon
United Kingdom
691 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 15:35:43
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Geoff,
Did you use the waterproof PVA adhesive?
Gordon
PB 0331, MG4473
Derby |
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george
United Kingdom
862 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 18:27:09
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| Thats the one I used but I could not get the veneer to stop blistering even after 24 hrs in the clamping frame Geoff |
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Horst Wendling
Germany
464 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 19:17:38
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I have a roll of special veneer tape to assamble veneer sheets.
It is paper with water-based adhesive.
The roll i s more as for the end of my 1st and 2nd life.
Is anyone interested in 2-3 mtr. for postage plus 1 Pound let me knew.
Email: horst.wendling@t-online.de
Horst
PA492 |
Edited by - Horst Wendling on 29/02/2012 21:32:26 |
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Dow
United Kingdom
490 Posts |
Posted - 29/02/2012 : 20:27:02
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My N dash veneer was done by a guy in Poole who also used to do the veneers for Sunseeker. It came with a guarantee to be gin proof. Steering wheel now changed.
Regards
David D
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Edited by - Dow on 29/02/2012 20:33:09 |
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