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NeilC
United Kingdom
27 Posts |
 Posted - 26/06/2012 : 17:28:30
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Hi everyone,
New on here, you may have seen I've posted an advert looking for a J2/PB. I hope you don't mind me asking a few "newbie" type questions!
I presently own a 61 MGA, 68 MG C GT and I've owned a B, BGT V8 and a few other post-war cars. Currently having my long term Healey 100 restored. I guess I've been around MG's for thirty years or so but not prewar cars.
I've always been keen to get a prewar car at some point and I feel it's about the right time now to start looking.
I have a few questions mainly around usability and what to look for in a car. Really, I'm just looking for a car I can drive on the occasional weekend but also, into my office every now and then. So, the car needs to be able to cope adequately with typical modern road conditions. A & B roads.
I have just tried a couple of J2's at a local specialist to me and I'm pretty smitten with them. The only worry I have is whether or not the cars can cope with some very steep hills near me - Bury Hill / Duncton Hill in West Sussex. The test drives I had weren't perfect and have me a bit concerned that I'm asking a bit much from these old cars. However when I see some of the motorsport activities people in the club engage in, I fancy there must be a solution?
What should I expect from a J2/PB, what modifications can be made to make them cope better with today's road conditions? Should I be looking for a supercharged model to cope better with climbing hills/coping with modern road conditions?
Hope I haven't bored you too much, appreciate any sage advice! PS I have plenty of mechanical aptitude so the nature of the cars themselves is not an issue.
Cheers,
Neil |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 26/06/2012 : 22:21:21
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A standard J2 is more than up to the task of driving on the roads of Britain.
You may need to use a different driving style to get the best out of the car - they dont grip or go like a modern.
However a well driven J2 can climb even the steepest hills with ease.
The important thing is to keep the revs up - a MMM engine doesnt produce any real power until it is above 4000 rpm (even a blown one) and revs all the way to 6000 (6500 or even 7000 to make em really go well) and to do this requires lots of hours prep and carefull assembly work when building the engine.
Dont over gear the car (try to make it cruise at 70 mph and 4000 rpm) because it will rob the car of its performance.
There are plenty of J2's which give moderns a bloody nose without blowers or 12 inch brakes.
A PB has similar performance to a standard J2 - the car is heavier so its improved power output more or less squares the circle - the same is true of an M type too.
A good M type is just as quick as a J - although the handling is not quite as stable or foot sure.
That said there are a couple of M types which regularly give bloody noses to J2 and PB alike!
You pays yer money and takes yer choice - but stick to standard I say!
Regards David |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 08:14:07
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Welcome to the Forum, Neil.
A little while ago Philip Bayne-Powell produced an excellent serialised piece in the MGCC magazine 'Safety Fast!' Entitled 'so you want to buy a Triple-M car' it went through each model in turn, commenting on their main features, strengths and weaknesses etc.
The articles weren't published in any other way but if you would be interested to see a copy, e-mail me off line.
Dick Morbey
PA/PB 0743
Henley-on-Thames, Oxon, UK |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1487 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 10:57:52
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Neil, Welcome to the Forum.
Please treat David Allison's comments with a large pinch of salt. We are all used to his extreme opinions, but I don't think that they should be aimed at someone who is new to MMM cars. He advises that "standard" is best, which I would not disagree with, but please don't buy a standard M Type and expect it to match a standard J - and whatever you do, DONT rev either to 5000 rpm and over until you are very, very sure of how good the engine is, and even then such high revs should be restricted to an engine fitted with a modern crankshaft and connecting rods.
I think that the main problem with most MMM cars is the gap between 2nd and 3rd gears. I know Duncton and Bury Hills very well, and a standard touring MMM car will climb them easily in 2nd but you wil have to creep up fairly slowly at 4000/4500 revs but the car will not enjoy trying it in 3rd. Due to the nature of the box and a heavy flywheel, it takes a second or two to get from 2nd gear into 3rd by which time, the revs will have dropped to well below 3000 and the power will have disappeared.
Find your nearest Natter attended by a few MMM members, and talk to them - even persuade them to take you for a ride to get a good feel of what is available. But don't expect to blast round the roads at 6500 revs as David seems to advocate. That is pure fantasy.
Colin Butchers. |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 11:44:35
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4000 rpm on my P with standard gearing is about sixty, as most modern traffic on single carriageway road seems to travel at between fifty and sixty, cruising at these speeds is fine.
PB and J ratios are closer than the PA, and rather more comfortable to use, but you do need to use them!
Personally I think a blown PB would be the ultimate road car, my own blown PA second best...
Don't forget David is used to a blown N, which I know from experience will leave P's and J's in the dust! I find best results between 3000 - 5000 rpm - my present max due to new pistons and bearings still being run in.
I must remember to read these note before I send them out! I should add that I have original con rods and a 'club' crank...
Graham
"I'd rather be happy than right anyday" Slartybartfast, Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
Edited by - MaGic_GV on 27/06/2012 11:54:08 |
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Gordon
United Kingdom
693 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 12:22:50
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I think Graham is correct in his view of the ultimate road car. I would add one point though. On a blown car you can pull a higher than standard overall gear ratio. But raising the rear axle ratio means you loose performance on the road. I think the ideal is to fit an overdrive in the way Barry Dean developed. Barry converted my box and in o/d top 4000 rpm is 70 mph so you have very relaxed cruising at 3500 rpm and keep up with the traffic. A flick of the switch and you "instantly" have a lower gear ratio and full performance benefits of the blower. Some of the benefits of a preselector box without the cost!
Gordon
PB 0331, MG4473
Derby |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 14:29:42
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Gents - in trying to shorten a diatribe my comments have been taken out of context.
I am I admit spoiled by some 30 odd years of driving blown N types - but I have also driven all but one other MMM model - a C type (blown or unblown) but I dont think I was being dismissive - if I was I apologise because I did not intend to give that impression.
I do not advocate using loads of revs on the road - just that driving a MMM car requires you to drive with more on the clock than we are used to with moderns.
My Focus diesel didnt rev above 4500 rpm - my current petrol one doesnt produce power below 4000 - it is simply a different style of driving.
You will find that in a MMM car you will need to hold on to lower gears for longer (especially climbing hills), as Colin stated (and I thought I had written) you will find that the power drops off alarmingly below 3000 rpm and the engine will labour.
Blown and unblown - I tend to agree that a blown PB is a pretty good road car - but I am sure that drivers of Talbot 90 and Riley 12/4 would argue pretty strongly in their favour as an ultimate?
I would also say that a blown PA is just as good but put a blown 6 cylinder MMM in there too for certain!
I just feel that it is a shame that so many cars are being fitted with go faster kit, when Mike Hawke used to demonstrate that an unblown J2 was if not the fastest (admittedly) probably the prettiest (no argument?) nicest handling MMM car of all.
Mike was often seen to show quicker cars around.
All it requires is a different driving style - admittedly a lot of bravery.
In fact I have been lucky enough to drive as already stated all but one MMM model and ALL have their merits - but should be judged by their time.
A MMM MG by the standards of the 1930's was a quick car (even a D type) - able to achieve 50+ MPH without much problem. This at a time when people were still pretty much used to shanks' pony.
Colin's advice is sage - I meant to encourage perhaps I failed to type with the same enthusiasm I have for the cars themselves.
The best advice is to try a number of cars and choose the specification that suits you.
As I said you pays yer moneyt and takes yer choice.
Regards David |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 20:08:10
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I drive a PA, a matching-numbers car, as it happens, purely for fun, used variously for going to work, shopping and trips out. I have never entered a MMM or MG event, most being in the SE of the country, but do have fun with the local OnlineA7C. Austin 7 owners are very pleasant people.
I owned my first PA at the age of 19 and am lettered MMM all through, like a stick of rock as my wife says, having owned J2, F, L2 and PA.
Most talk of power and revs is nonsense in practice, rather like old-car racing itself; these are road cars. All MMM road cars are underpowered when compared even to my elderly Golf 1.8T Estate. The household MX5 will blow MMM cars into the weeds, but the PA has a set of qualities missing in any modern sports car.
A PA or J2 in standard tune, even well-used without a recent rebuild, will provide ample fun going to the office or tout on a Sunday. We returned an hour ago from a trip up the local A38, returning 'through the lanes', a journey made longer by conversations with interested people, a great pleasure. The PA copes - just - with the A38 and is at home in the lanes, of course. My choice would always be a PA, but there is no logic to this.
Do it now, while you can and take no theory nonsense from people who are really permanent re-builders rather than drivers. My time with the cars is coming naturally to an end through age; I would love years more but it won't happen. If you miss out on a MMM you will have lost a motoring opportunity.
Bob. |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 20:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Stringfield
Most talk of power and revs is nonsense in practice, rather like old-car racing itself; these are road cars.
Bob.
I must re-read the history of MG again. I have clearly mis-understood a great deal. |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 20:25:46
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Hello Bob
Next year's Triple-M main event is admittedly not in Staffordshire (nor in the South East) but in the Welsh Marches/Radnorshire/Powys, so I hope it may prove to be a bit of a magnet for the many who cannot usually get to these events!
Dick Morbey
PA/PB 0743
Henley-on-Thames, Oxon, UK |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 21:04:49
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'I have clearly mis-understood'
You may have mis-understood the difference between car racing and old-car racing.
Bob. |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 21:24:51
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Bob
Your post is well worthy of support. I have a J2, by default really as it was given to me and rather rudely interrupted my rebuilding of the F salonette. Had to get it going, though, having been given it. It is very original, I had to get rid of the rust, woodworm and mould and generally do the necessary which for me always includes doing the mechanicals so it now sports a new crank and rods but is otherwise as I found it, or it found me, complete with quite a lot of original paint.
I had to take it up to Edinburgh to see its previous owner and we then went on to Skye before returning to Somerset. The most recent trip was to France, ending unfortunately in a broken half shaft. Apart from that I have found her utterly reliable.
She gets used for shopping etc and general local commuting as well as the long trips. I do avoid motorways, maJor A roads and the like and apparently I am always smiling I find other road users to be so courteous. Life is a real pleasure in a Triple M and just maybe the J2 is the most fun, the Fs are just that little bit more stately.
Cheers
P |
Edited by - PeterL on 27/06/2012 21:26:15 |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 21:30:44
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Neil
I sold my MGB and bought a standard PA, seven years ago. I enjoyed driving the B but a PA is altogether a different experience. If you like pre-war cars the PA is a joy to own and drive. They are 80 year old technology so there is much you could criticise if you wanted to. So either you like them or you don't. If you do, then how long it takes to get up a 1 in 4 hill is not a concern; it will get you to the top. For most long trips (75/100 miles), travelling on A/B roads, I average 38/40 mph and I drive with great empathy for my 77 year-old car.
So if you enjoyed the experience of the J2s then buy a MMM and enjoy it. If you felt yourself criticising its weaknesses then stay with your rather nice collection of post war classics.
Hopefully you will be joining the MMM clan soon. Members are very friendly and very helpful. If you can find an existing member to view possible purchases with you, so much the better.
Peter
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JMH
United Kingdom
913 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 21:47:22
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Neil,
If you find someone with a well sorted J2 & go for a ride, you will not be the first (or last) to go & buy one on the strength of it. The key is to do it in one that is well sorted. There are still some cars out there that can't pull the skin of a rice pudding, but a good one will put a smile on your face & that's about it really.
JH
(Current custodian of THE J2) |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 23:01:01
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David on the J2 v M type performance issue, I think you are forgetting the difference between the AA and AB head on unblown cars, and coupled with an extra SU and all round better breathing engine, a heavier flywheel and smaller inlet valves, the standard M and J are rather different in power output
Rich
Vintage MG Parts |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 28/06/2012 : 08:46:19
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In view of some of the above, and the original request for info on STANDARD cars, I will confess that I am driving the P without blower at present, for reasons unconnected with the blower itself, and still find it very enjoyable. Incidentally, I have followed the odd J2 around in the past, and find it quite hard to keep up!
Graham
"I'd rather be happy than right anyday" Slartybartfast, Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
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