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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
 Posted - 18/12/2012 : 13:46:41
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I've been following up a number of avenues for a source of suitable coloured hood material and one of the companies I have been in touch with is the Haartz Corporation who make the Stayfast and Twillfast material that many people use in place of double duck. It's known as mohair but it is in fact solution dyed acrylic.
Anyway, Doug Haartz is very enthusiastic about trying to come up with a three layer hood fabric in 'our' colours of red, green and blue but naturally enough he would like to be able to have some indication of the correct colours. He has asked therefore if anyone might have old fragments of hood or tonneau cover or side screen in any of the colours that they would be willing to lend to Haartz for them to try to match them. Recognising of course that they would have faded and discoloured over the last eighty years.
But this seems to be a most promising line of enquiry so can anyone help? Or know of anyone who can? |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 18/12/2012 13:50:22 |
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gordclark
Canada
170 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2013 : 00:06:30
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Simon,
In the US, there is a well-known supplier of high quality canvas - William Hirsch. See http://www.hirschauto.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SF. They claim that the product 'Stayfast" often replaces Haartz. The important thing here, is that the material is available in many colours, and I see in the listing Maroon, Wine, Jade Green, English Green, Forest Green, two Blues, all in addition to a selection of the ususal blacks and varieties of tan/brown, etc.
He also offers a heavy German Happich material in Deep Red, Grey Green, Blue, Claret, etc. See http://www.hirschauto.com/products.asp?dept=71
Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué. |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2013 : 22:45:01
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| Many thanks, Gord, I'll check these out. |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
Posted - 28/01/2013 : 17:09:57
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A belated update to this posting ...
I happened to be browsing through Malcolm Green's book on the 4-cylinder cars in an abortive attempt to find a paint code for Old English White to answer MG Maverick's enquiry, when I chanced on the following at P131:
'J-TYPE
1933.
The J2 hood was of rubberised twill coloured to match the general colour scheme. The J1 4-seater hood was in black rubberised twill.
1934.
The hood material on the open cars also matched the body colour.'
Dick
PA/PB 0743
Nr. Henley-on-Thames, Oxon, UK |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
Posted - 28/01/2013 : 17:41:45
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Thanks for this, Dick. I wonder what the source of this information is as canvas is not, as far as I have been able to determine, woven with a twill pattern, but is instead a plain square weave. (Twill is not a fabric, it's a weave pattern). And of course rubberised isn't the same as double duck which is two layers of canvas with a rubber laminate between them.
But it doesn't get us any nearer determining what the colours actually were. One idea is that the green was more of a khaki colour but even that isn't available any more. And "match the general colour scheme" is nicely vague, isn't it? Plenty of room to manoeuvre there without attracting the attention of you know who! |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3682 Posts |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1640 Posts |
Posted - 28/01/2013 : 23:24:53
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I was always told by the old chap I knew who had worked at UM in the Triple M days that coloured hood materials were not the norm and that most standard production cars they sold were fitted with black material which was apparently cheaper. Maybe pre ordered cars could be requested with coloured material,it was certainly advertised and available. Maybe use of coloured material depended on availablity.
In the early sixties when I had my first J2 there were still a quite a lot of pretty original ones around. Old and worn out yes but a lot of them still wore their original weather equipment. I dont remember seeing many, if any, with coloured material.
Certainly my first J2 which was a very original late 2 tone red swept wing car which had its original black hood and sidescreens. They were faded and worn but definately original and definately black.
Despite what has been written I question whether anyone need be too concerned about originality in this regard. If you are sure your car had coloured material and are determined to replace it then thats your choice, otherwise I reckon its perfectly OK to stick with black which for me personally looks better any rate.
TH |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2013 : 04:24:13
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Dick,
Thanks for that link. Indeed regular square weave double duck is readily available, albeit only in black and fawn and it would seem that whatever was used pre-war simply is no longer available in any colour. And even if it was, it probably isn't very good anyway as by all accounts it wasn't actually very waterproof!
Terry
What I find interesting is that while people are very keen on mechanical originality - just think of some of threads here on things like the correct screws for attaching the horn button to the dash, the correct type of brake light switch (hidden in the undertray!), correct cable routing along the chassis rails and so on - the style and appearance of the hood and half tonneau are more or less ignored. One only has to look at the number of cars where the hood is wrong and see that it completely spoils the look of the car.
And as for the colour, what I find strange is that many of the contemporary photos of the J2 would suggest that the half tonneau cover in particular is not black. For sure some of these are factory photos and may be of cars prettied up for Earl's Court, but many are just pictures taken of regular cars by their owners. Mine is a case in point. There is nothing in any of the photos I have of my car to suggest that the half tonneau cover was black. The delightful picture of the Northumberland J2 on another thread also shows a half tonneau cover that is clearly not black (although the hood peaking out from under it could well be black!). In contrast, the photo of the prototype J2 while being used by John Thornley which appears in the recent article by Mike Allison in Safety Fast, clearly shows a black hood and black side screens.
Could it be, I wonder, that the half tonneau was often 'colour coded' but the hood and side screens were generally just black? In which case, might the half tonneau cover have been made from Rexine (like the later T types) but in the same colour as the trim? It was, after all, largely decorative and provided no weather protection whatsoever.
And then of course there's the question of the flaps covering the folded hood frame but that's another story!
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2569 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2013 : 17:33:40
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Dare I suggest that comtemporary photos are not necessarily an accurate guide to possible colours? The effect of Orthochrome film is to reverse the tones of some colours & unless you know those colours, e.g. the red & blue of RAF roundels, there's nothing to give the game away. Of course Ortho did not have the whole market by any means, so again, unless you know the type of film used.....
Again, mention has been made of the rapid fading of some of these materials so, unless you know a picture was taken very early in a car's life....
My view Simon, for what it's worth is that, if you think a toning hood is appropriate for your car, then it is. The OP cannot prove things one way or the other as this discussion has shown.
Also, apart from the cost of having a second hood made, it is very easy to change if you subsequently find you were wrong. It involves no modification to the car itself, & that is my test.
Go for it!
Dave |
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Colin McLachlan
United Kingdom
994 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2013 : 17:49:43
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And stop worrying...
Colin
PA 0613
MG3242
Register No. 2591 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
Posted - 29/01/2013 : 17:57:47
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Dave,
indeed orthochromatic film is almost certainly what was in my Dad's Box Brownie when the took the photos I now have. I used to use it myself in my darkroom as a teenager under the red safe light!
But it's not so much a matter of wrong or right but curiosity. I have photos of my car taken when it was clearly only a matter of weeks old. And the half tonneau cover is clearly not remotely the same shade as either the spare tyre (which still has a shine on it, it's so new) or the speedo or rev counter dial. So if it wasn't black, what colour was it? And any contemporary photos I've seen of J2s show a light coloured half tonneau cover. Yet from the few contemporary photos I've seen which show the hood up, the hood is apparently black. So what's the story I wonder?
And as I said, I do find it strange that we can all be so fussy about so many aspects of originality, yet the hood and tonneau cover get more or less dismissed as being of no significance and yet they form such an important part of the visual identity of the car.
Clearly I need to get out more!
P.S. Worrying? Moi? Shome mishtake shurely! |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 29/01/2013 18:01:45 |
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Colin McLachlan
United Kingdom
994 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2013 : 10:52:05
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quote:
Clearly I need to get out more!
Yes! Once you start some serious driving you will forget all these originality worries. Stay cool 
Colin
PA 0613
MG3242
Register No. 2591 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2013 : 11:39:23
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Would that I could Colin,but I'll not get much chance this year behind the wheel as work is keeping me far from home.
But I still find it strange that there are numerous discussions on this Forum about minute points of originality relating to the mechanical aspects of our cars, but when it comes to weather equipment the answer is always the same - don't worry about it, it doesn't matter, you don't need a hood anyway, and so on.
I wonder why?
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tholden
United Kingdom
1640 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2013 : 12:31:10
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Simon I think you may have answered your own question. Someone once said to me that once you have driven a J2 with the hood up you will never want to drive it with it up again.
I agree and dont even bother to have a hood on my car. Maybe thats why not many people are interested in the detail of hoods.
With regard to your worries over the colour of tonneau and hood material as I said before there may have been no fixed pattern and it could even have depended on what material was available any one week.
TH |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6177 Posts |
Posted - 30/01/2013 : 12:47:24
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Yes, Terry, I know you're not a hood guy, and it's not that I'm worried - I'm just curious about something that was perhaps unique about our cars at the time. I doubt if many makers offered coloured hoods and tonneau covers and I think it's a pity that we know so little about them and apparently care less.
I seem to recall you expressing reservations about using the modern oil filtration system on a J engine as it didn't look right. Should not the same standards apply to the weather equipment 
Anyway, I think I've decided on the way I'm going to proceed and when the job has been done (hopefully in April) I'll share the results with y'all 
P.S. I see the M type guys are taking their hoods much more seriously on another thread |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 30/01/2013 13:03:02 |
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