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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2013 : 18:14:03
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Just had a few emails with owner asking about 1936 history and it is PB0648.
Martin bourke in limerick who runs the car club out there and tge limerick GP events now has just sent me a book on the race in 1936. So kind and I look fwd to sharing with you more info!!!!
Mark Dolton
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Barry Walker
United Kingdom
227 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2013 : 22:14:39
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With reference to the 1936 Irish Gran Prix winning MG. The car that won this race was a PB 4-seater, and in that body form (clearly identified, by viewing the 'stills' in the Pathe News reel mentioned in the replies above...car No 32.) This was reasonably recently offered for sale in bits by Malcolm Elder and was purchased by the person now offering it for sale on Car & Classic. (Well noted George)
The subsequent rebuild is TOTALLY WRONG, the car having been transformed into a 2-seater and in a form more like a Q type. It represents nothing of the type of car that won the race, even though the chassis under it, and engine in it, are those that were part of the original car. To retain its value the car should have been faithfully rebuilt as the car that won the race, there being ample evidence and information to do this. The true value has been lost, the car now being worth little over half the advertised price (in my opinion). The car was offered to me but I had to advise my professional view of it. Great shame really. Malcolm Elder has all the vital Nos.
all best, Barry Walker. |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3677 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 08:15:45
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Thanks Barry
As an aside, readers of the FIVA Charter pf Turin will immediately recognise that a rebuild of this nature offends one of the main guiding principles of that Charter!
Dick
PA/PB 0743
Nr. Henley-on-Thames, Oxon, UK |
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graham holdsworth
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 08:40:55
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I totally agree with Barry, however it is now being offered with conventional P type body, but as a 2str.
Graham
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 14:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by graham holdsworth... most voiturette races in the 30's were handicaps where the A7s and MGs mixed it with ERAs Bugs and Masers. ( read Prince Chula's great trio of books on Bira's racing )
Graham
The TT, Brooklands - and post-war Goodwood - handicaps have given 1930s road handicap racing an unjustifiably poor reputation. A small exposition: think of them like those "hare and hounds" cross-country runs that those sadistic games masters used to send you on ...
Firstly, Irish road handicaps were run on a rather different basis to Crystal Palace and Donington Park races, which were class handicaps based on engine capacity and where - regardless of ability - all members of the 750cc class started together, then the 1100s and so on. The gaps between them were also adjusted season-by-season and by 1939 the 750cc class had disappeared - not least because the works Austins were now faster than the K3s and even some of the ERAs! You'd never have seen a PB racing ERAs there though.
In Ireland on the other hand - and indeed in Australia and South Africa - the drivers were allotted individual handicaps based on a combination of both their previous record and the potency (or otherwise!) of their machinery. So - in a hypothetical example - the limit man might be a novice in a K3, followed some seconds later by a more experienced driver in a PB, then a Ford 8 Special, another K3 with a more experienced driver, a Triumph Dolomite, a blown Riley 1500, an Alfa Monza etc etc. At various times between 1934 and 1939 you might have found anything from unblown Austin 7s to Alfa Romeo tipo Bs racing together: even, on one occasion at Leinster, an enormous Mercedes Benz SSKL!
The handicappers could of course adjust the margins of difference after observing practice - although this very seldom happened - and the cannier drivers would in any case sandbag during practice to avoid this. As the Irish handicappers were usually just ordinary club members who only did this once a year, they were prone to mistakes - and much more easily fooled than Ebby Ebblewhite and his merry band of helpers at Brooklands, who had meticulous records of every driver and car, even surreptitiously timing private test sessions.
There were also suspicions that some (although not all) Irish handicappers tended to treat visiting drivers from across the water more harshly than home competitors. I've never seen that accusation levelled at Limerick, but it was certainly said of Leinster ...
The system used in the TT was far more complicated and involved a concept called "credit laps" as well, meaning that not all competitors had to cover the full distance. But if a road handicap was over 150 miles, then every finisher who had not been lapped by the leaders had done 150 miles when they crossed the line, whether he was the limit man who started first or the scratch man, who started last.
Mark: I have some PDFs of reports of the 1936 Limerick race from the Irish Times which you might find of interest.  |
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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
Posted - 13/03/2013 : 13:43:01
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Thanks for the info!
I ve received some info from the VSCC Library...
Anyone fancy identifying the cars from the entrants below:
A Hutchinson MG PB Supercharged PB0648 4 seat, 2hrs9mins, 57.14mph 16sec ahead of A Dobson in the ERA.
5th Sir A MacRobert 1087cc MG
L R Briggs 1087cc MG
M S Soames 1087cc MG
E J Costello 847cc MG
G Managam 847cc MG
K D Evans 847cc MG (Am I right in thinking this is the Evans C Type, looks like it in the film?)
Mark Dolton
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Edited by - Dolts on 13/03/2013 13:48:27 |
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Cathelijne
Netherlands
744 Posts |
Posted - 13/03/2013 : 14:18:37
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Hi Mark,
Only one I can help you with is LR Briggs who drove K3020.
What entry number did Evans have? 'Cause number 34 definitely isn't the sprint car. I'm guessing you were thinking of that car in the film? I can't seem to see any others that fit the bill, even if only slightly ...
Cheers,
Cat
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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
Posted - 13/03/2013 : 17:47:02
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Hi Cat, thanks and yes i thought 34 in the film looked like a pointy tailed midget of sorts! Thanks for Briggs info. No numbers on entry list but further info on way .
Mark Dolton
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Edited by - Dolts on 13/03/2013 17:47:50 |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1487 Posts |
Posted - 14/03/2013 : 10:27:50
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Mark,
Here's a bit more info.
MacRobert K 3017 He came 5th.
Briggs K3020 He retired.
Soames Probably K 3015 No news of what he did, but he is reported to have driven K 3015 in Ireland a week later. This car was owned by J H T Smith at the time.
Of the "tiddlers" - no news
Colin B. |
Edited by - Colin Butchers on 14/03/2013 10:28:51 |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 16/03/2013 : 13:42:23
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I wonder if there was a hidden advantage in using a 4 seater for handicap events or if that is just what the owner happened to have. From memory, the 4 seater is about 1/2 cwt heavier than a 2 seater but there may be some latitude for removing some of this difference i.e. remove rear seats, flooring etc. The slightly more aerodynamic rear end would probably make no difference! Also, handicappers, though I am sure they were no fools, may be lulled into thinking that a four seater wouldn't be all that fast...
Graham
"I'd rather be happy than right anyday" Slartybartfast, Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 14:34:12
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I ve recieved a fantastic book from Martin Bourke from the Limerick Car Club on all things Limerick GP. So my investgations and writing for a year book article are well under way.
Without giving away too much of the content, below are the MG entrants from the 3 GPs held in the 30's. If anyone does have any info, or can idenitfy car and drivers please let me know
1935
W R Baird – MG RA0259
W J Kavanagh – MG Magnette 1287cc – Noted as Standard N Type
W F Ayrton – MG Magnette 1287cc – N Type
R Marsh – MG Midget 847cc – P Type
1936
K D Evans MG R Type
L R Briggs MG K3020
Sir A W MacRobert MG K3017
M S Soames - JHT Smith – MG K3015
J Patterson – A Hutchinson – MG PB0648(s)Winner
S R Sheane – G A Magan – MG PA
E J Costello and W T Doherty - MG J2
1938
J R Weir MG K3021
P R Monkhouse MG PB(s)
C E Robb MG J4003 (s)
H A Duignan – J D McClure MG TA Winner
All the best Mark
Mark Dolton
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6119 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 17:42:46
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Here's Bobby Baird's R type at the 1935 Grand Prix, complete with Belfast number plate as apparently he drove the car from Abingdon home to Belfast.
Insert Image: 
This car has been with the Bucknell family in Australia since the 1960s I believe and I'm sure Chris Bucknell can give more information about its racing career.
There's more info about it on this thread http://www.triple-mregister.org/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=3201&SearchTerms=Baird,limerick |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 11/04/2013 17:44:42 |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
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nea11
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 15/04/2013 : 22:24:39
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Refence all the comments about this car and the fact that it as had different body types, registration numbers and the supercharger.
I can shed a lot of light on all these points because I own this car. The person selling the car for me is a good friend of mine.
To give you some recent history, This car was owned by Tim Hannam who sold it to Malcolm Elder the dealer I bought it from.
I was in contact with Tim to ask what detail he knew about the car and was told that he bought it from a friend of a friend who had it for years in crates.
It was dismantled when I purchased it with a two seater body that was in a bad state. All the major items where intact with the correct matching number engine and gearbox. Malcolm Elder also told me the car was in a book called green dust.
At that point I contacted the then MMM registrar Bob Clare to see if the club was aware of it and if he could give me any information about it.
Bob told me that the club already had it registered. Number MMM3458.
I told him that I was going to have the car fully restored and ask him his opinion about the body that was on it when I got it. He suggested it might be a good idea to restore it has I found it, but anything was better than leaving it in crates.
From the records that the club had it shows that it was ordered new by Hutchinson with a marshall supercharger aero screens and leather bonnet strap.
Hutchinson had quite a few requests to the factory about all sorts of things including one where he needed work on the engine stating the fact that he needed back for a race he was completing in. So the factory must have know about the race history at that time.
The original registration number was EZ 2444 Bob Clare said that John Innes should be able to help me with that, which he has. But when I went to the DVLA it wasn’t that easy, so I registered it with a number that I already had 6 KPK
I then thought that it was best to get a standard age related registration. 165 YUH was given by the DVLA so if and when the DVLA give back EZ 2444 I wouldn’t lose my number 6 KPK.
I had the car fully restored by MG specialist Andy King at that time it was decide to fit a volumex supercharger front mounted rather than a marshall under bonnet. That was done because I perfer the look of the front mount supercharger.
While the car was being restored I was contacted by Martin Bourke the organiser
of the 2010 Limerick Grand Prix to ask whether the car could be there. At that time there was no way it would be ready for the 2010 event he said that he also was planning an event in 2011. Maybe it would be ready for that.
I was later contacted by Jack Kingston the organiser of the Irish Festival of speed asking if I would bring the car over to be their star car.
The closer it got to the two events it was quite clear there was no way it was going to be ready and the only way it could be there was to fit a ’Q’ type body that Andy King already had so that was fitted rather than not be there at all. I did send Bob Clare an email letting him know about this body.
The car went over to Ireland for both the Festival of speed and the 2011 Limerick Grand Prix. Which I would like to say I enjoyed fully, I also think that the organisers where pleased that the car was there. After the events that body was removed and the current body was refitted.
So there you are that’s it. I have never tried to say the car is anything other than what it is, unlike many other race cars that I have seen that are no more than a chassis plate that was found in a draw and made into something it’s not. This car won the Limerick Grand Prix in 1936 along with more races in the 1930's.
I have a large folder of history with the car and if anyone as any more I would be happy to have it. Like all race cars it can tell a few stories and has under gone a few changes but it's still got it's original running gear and chassis.
I hope this helps to enlighten things a bit.
neal hilton |
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mgpbracer
United Kingdom
15 Posts |
Posted - 15/05/2013 : 17:40:25
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| Yes i think Barry has it right, very sad , pb0648 was found by me with a j2 back end and a cut down door, in red,and was raced like this after it lost its 4 seater body. but was two tone blue from new, had a 100mph speedo the car was in wooden boxes from 1951 may be someone will fit a 4 seater body Tim Hannam |
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