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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
 Posted - 23/03/2006 : 00:14:23
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How do I judge the amount of work (and expense) needed on an oil pump? In this case a J2 pump is to be fitted to an M-type. Apart from scoring inside the bottom plate what other problems should I look for to decide what needs repair or replacement?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 23/03/2006 00:28:13 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 23/03/2006 : 01:11:06
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Sam,
Both the workshop manual and Blowers give a good rundown on checking the servicability of oil pumps, but in essence what you are looking for is excessove clearance gears to cover and gears to body. I think the recommended clearance is .002 inches. The scoring on the cover is easy. That can be ground out flat, which you'll want to do. If the body isn't worn and all wear is in the gears, they can be easily replaced. But check the manuals. That's the best detail I know of.
Cheers,
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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talbot
United Kingdom
718 Posts |
Posted - 23/03/2006 : 11:20:33
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Hello sam,
Are you converting the pump to full flow filteration ? I have seen M Types with a union fitted to the pump bottom plate and a copper pipe taking oil to a full flow filter and then on to the oil presure gauge tapping in the block. Even though I am not at this stage in my rebuild I am interested in the detail of this conversion. I assume some gallery in the pump or block is sealed to prevent oil being pumped upwards and it must thus come out of the modified bottom plate. Is the oil pressure gauge tapping fed by a gallery in the bock which connects directly to the pump so that when modified the oil is fed into the gallery in a "reverse direction"? If this is the case is the gallery in the block sealed or in the pump ? I am very interested in this because if I do a modification and it doesn't work that's my engine in the scrap bin. Any advice will be much appreciated.
Jan T |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 23/03/2006 : 21:53:40
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Thanks Lew,I shall take a look at Blower.
Jan, I plan to use a full flow oil filter using a cast aluminium adaptor (purchased from Barry Dean) which fits in place of the cover. The casting is designed to take a modern Renault Clio oil filter. Some alterations need to be made to the pipes but it is a fairly tidy arrangement. I do not think this system changes the direction of oil flow. I believe that Barry Foster produces something like this too.
I have never understood why an adaptor is not made for the M-type to simply replace the original aluminium strainer housing using the original support bracket, pipes and unions while adapted to take a modern filter. For the M-type this would seem to me the simplest and most elegant solution but it does not appear to be available. Does anyone know better or is there a reason for not doing it this way?
Sam |
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Blue M
United Kingdom
1474 Posts |
Posted - 24/03/2006 : 11:15:36
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Re: Full flow oil filters.
On my engine the filter is placed in the original position on a bracket similar to to the original strainer bracket. It screws onto a round holder made of aluminium which is simple to make on a lathe.This has inlet and outlet underneath. The inlet goes to a half-inch thick bottom plate on the pump. The outlet goes to the front of the block where the feed to the head is normally . The head feed pipe is connected to an outlet in the alloy block that holds the filter. The oil feed to the block is stopped by a grubscrew in the front housing above the outlet in the pump but of slightly larger diameter so it can't unscrew itself . All the fittings are standard Wade type. The sump has an oval block bolted on to take the union.
Although it works very well, I have had to replace the copper pipes I made with flexible ones, as the copper ones kept cracking. The main disadvantage is that it is rather close to the exhaust down-pipe.
When the conversion was done in the early 1970s there was nothing else available, but the idea of putting the filter underneath sounds very neat and uncomplicated.
On the subject of pumps, the J pump I have has a larger pipe diameter than the M. The gears however are the same size. Is there any advantage in having larger pipes?
Ian |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 24/03/2006 : 17:40:32
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Sam,
Sorry. I thought the info was in Blower's or the workshop manual. It isn't. I did find it in the TD workshop manual. If you need the information, I'll send a copy to your email address.
Cheers,
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 24/03/2006 : 19:28:48
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Yes please Lew,Blower left me scratching my head and I would very much appreciate a copy of the TD advice.
Ian is your filter system similar to a design made by Barry Foster? I was on the 'phone to Barry earlier today and he explained why the M-type oil strainer housing cannot simply be replaced by a modern filter without changing the pipes - the modern oil filter needs to be on the pressure side of the pump.
Ian I have just been out to the garage and discovered you were absolutely right about the J2 pump and the M having the same size of gears.I certainly cannot see any difference.It seems that although the J2 pump is thicker outside,inside the pumps are much the same and the main difference is that the J2 has a larger pipe. This leaves me wondering why I have been able to read references to the M gears not being as deep as the J type and needing to make a "sandwich plate" to... "bring the M body up to J2 dimensions"...
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 24/03/2006 19:30:07 |
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saltandvinegar
United Kingdom
105 Posts |
Posted - 24/03/2006 : 20:09:58
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Hi Sam
J type Oil Pump gears are 9/16" deep -some later M types had these gears too. Most M types oil pumps had gears 5/16" deep and some very early examples and Morris Minors had 1/4" gears! It is possible to fit a 1/4" adaptor plate to the 5/16" pumps thereby allowing the fitment of the 9/16" gears. The main advantage is the improvement in flow hence the requirement for larger diameter pipes.-the pressure remains nominally the same however. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 25/03/2006 : 01:04:15
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Yes,my gears are 9/16" deep on both oil pumps.The M-type pump came from my car which was registered June 1930.Presumably the more substantial J2 body was introduced mainly to make it easier to fit a larger pipe but it sounds as though some people have managed to do this on the lighter M-type/Minor pump body.
Thanks to all for your comments.
Sam |
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bob
United Kingdom
337 Posts |
Posted - 25/03/2006 : 20:06:40
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Sam
re your oil filter adaptor from Barry Dean. As it is aluminium it will have to fit over the steel end plate so the gears do not wear it out. Obviously the steel end plate will need a hole drilling in it to allow the oil to flow into the adaptor.You will see the oil flow actually flows the opposite way through the canister. Do you you think that will make any difference? |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 26/03/2006 : 22:02:43
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Thanks Bob, you make a very good point. I wondered about this but had somehow gained the mistaken impression that Barrie Dean's filter adaptor does not need the steel plate. I 'phoned Barrie today and, while the adaptor can work without it, he recommends using the original steel plate (with suitable gaskets and surfacing) sandwiched between the pump body and the aluminium. And of course a hole needs to be drilled in the steel plate to allow the oil to flow to the adaptor.
I forgot to ask about the direction of oil flow through the canister but I will ask Barrie the next time.
Barrie's system makes the use of the original oil strainer housing optional and although it is largely redundant he believes it provides a useful means to prime the pump. I have asked him for pictures of this preferred plumbing layout and once I have these (and with his permission) will be happy to share them. I wish Barrie would offer a kit with all the required pipework made up.
 Can anyone who has used Barrie's full flow oil filter system comment on how well it has worked?
Has anyone experience to share of other full flow oil filter options which can be bought more or less off the shelf?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 30/03/2006 19:10:27 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 30/03/2006 : 23:38:58
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The owners in the UK are lucky in that you somehow know of all these small suppliers. How about sharing the contact information?
In fact, maybe this is a valuable addition to this web site - a list of parts and services sources (large AND small) with contact information, and recommendations.
What say all?
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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rbm
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 31/03/2006 : 08:40:44
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Sport and Vintage do the oil pump conversion, where the filter goes on the bottom of the oil pump (on M types anyway) the oil is piped to the rear of the block.
This conversion seams to work well Frank Ashley (who is a member of this board) has had one fitted for some time and it has had no problems - it might be worth dropping him an email and find out form the horses mouth so to speak.
I'm going to fit this type of filter to all 3 of the M engines when funds allow (the 1948 Cooper 500 is swollowing most of the funds at the moment!).
Richard |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 19:32:24
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Richard,the Sports & Vintage oil filter arrangement sounds very like Barrie Dean's. I have sent Frank Ashley an email to request details.
Bob, I think the oil flow is correct on Barrie Dean's arrangement, with the oil flowing from the pump to the outer surface of the filter material and through to the core and on to lubricate the engine. I understand (via a search today on the internet) that the design of a canister type filter requires the oil to flow this way because it incorporates a pressure relief valve (to allow oil to bypass the filter if it becomes too clogged) and an anti-drainback system, niether of which would work in reverse. Can anyone confirm that this is the case ?
And Lew, I agree with you about sharing contact information. Barrie Dean does not produce his adaptors on an industrial scale - he has four on the shelf at present - but he is happy for me to pass on his address and telephone number.
Sam |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2006 : 21:24:50
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Terry, I have never seen an F-type engine. Does the F-type use an oil strainer in a housing similar to the M-type and if so did you incorporate it with your full flow oil filter system ? And if you have retained the strainer housing has it been satisfactory ?
Sam |
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