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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2006 : 08:48:54
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Without access to a lathe and wishing to use a modified Bosch 009 distributor in my M-type can anyone tell me where I can purchase a suitably modified example ? When this topic came up before it was observed that these could be purchased but no names or addresses appeared.
Sam |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
705 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 10:22:10
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Sam,
You could try Baynton Jones. They have made a 6 cylinder version of this Bosch part for me, replacing the 4-cam with a 6 lobe cam.
You can link to their website from our links page.
John R |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1640 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 12:40:07
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I have not had to use one of the Bosch distributors since I had a supply of new Lucas units but I am told they work well. I am however reliably informed that they were specially made by Bosch for the Beetle with one lobe machined slightly differently to the others to give different timing on one cylinder. Whether that is correct, why it is and how much the difference is I do not know. If quite a lot of cars are running well it cannot be significant but it does sound rather odd. Anybody know about this ? Has anyone mapped out the advance curve or had their car on a rolling road to check it out ?
Terry Holden |
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KevinH
United Kingdom
156 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 13:52:09
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I've fitted a Bosch 009 to my PA with very good results.
As it was a used unit out of a bent Beetle, I checked it out carefully and after straightening the shaft slightly measured the lobes and they were all exactly the same height, although I didn't check the timing of one relative to the other.
I obtained the advance curve from Bosch, and adjusted the weights to give a curve more like that of the original Lucas unit. The spec from Bosch didn't give any hint of one cylinder being different from the others, and having worked on Beetle engines in the past I can't think of any reason why that should be so.
When I fitted the 009 to my PA, I made a new deep drive dog on my lathe so that the distributor fits as is, but I understand that the MOWOG dog fits but then the distributor body needs to be turned down a bit so that it sits deeper in the housing.
Kevin |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 14:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by tholden
I have not had to use one of the Bosch distributors since I had a supply of new Lucas units but I am told they work well. I am however reliably informed that they were specially made by Bosch for the Beetle with one lobe machined slightly differently to the others to give different timing on one cylinder. Whether that is correct, why it is and how much the difference is I do not know. If quite a lot of cars are running well it cannot be significant but it does sound rather odd. Anybody know about this ? Has anyone mapped out the advance curve or had their car on a rolling road to check it out ?
Terry Holden
Terry
That might be a possibility. I used to work for a VW main agent service dept many years ago when the old style Beetles were new. There was a problem with one cylinder running (#3?) too hot which I vaguely remember was due to the airflow being partly obstructed by the oil coiler. They had a tendency to drop exhaust valves and or crack valve seats on that cylinder. Maybe the ig. timing on that cylinder was altered to compensate. That having been said, I've heard only good reports of 009 Bosch distributors being fitted to Triple M engines. Hope so, as I am about to fit one on my lightweight P-type. |
Edited by - kimber on 10/04/2006 14:55:11 |
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 16:00:31
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Sam,
The 009 has to be altered in one of two ways to fit a Triple-M engine because as supplied the drive dog does not go deep enough into the engine housing to engage the drive, it is about 1/8ö - 3/16ö to short.
1. You can either machine a small amount off the base of the body so that the unit fits deeper into the engine housing. You then use the drive dog supplied with the distributor.
or
2. You make up a new drive dog which is slightly deeper than the one supplied with the distributor.
I have not given precise figures because the height of the drive dog in the engine can vary slightly from engine to engine (it depends where it has been pinned onto the oil pump gear), it is best to measure itÆs depth and make the dog to suit the depth.
Peter.
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 18:41:04
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Thanks to all for the above very helpful comments.
The alteration of the advance curve sounds like a challenge.
Is the advance curve simply altered by changing the weights?
Does all this become even more complex depending on which camshaft is used e.g. standard, 12/12, C-type ? In my case I have a C-type timing camshaft.
Can the vacuum tube can be satisfactorily connected to a tapping on the manifold which (I guess) in my case once worked a windscreen wiper? Does the Bosch distributor have a vacuum connection?
Do some people simply prevent the weights from moving and advance and retard manually?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 11/04/2006 23:00:13 |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1640 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 19:00:42
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Kevin I would be interested to see that advance curve from Bosch if there is some way you could E mail it to me on tholden@supanet.com. Funny about the supposed lobe variations. The person who told me was quite insistant that Bosch had told him this and I think the reasons were akin to the issues you mention Andrew. It may only be a slight variation in shape on one lobe I dont know. In any event it sounds a good replacement for the Lucas unit. Does it have a black cap ? I have given away all my original new Lucas units over the years so might get one of these as a spare.
What do you think are the chances that the people driving around with a dissy I gave them might club together and buy me one of these ??? Ha Ha  ....Terry |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 22:05:10
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I have a 009 to fit and which I have machined up ready to fit. I have heard that No 3 lobe has a slightly altered timing to take account of the hotspot. Interesting having read below that one of us has checked the timing and found no difference. There are however two origins for these 009s namely the original German supplier, and now the Argentinian supplier. Germany no longer manufactures this unit. Maybe the Argentinians did not realise that one lobe was apparently different!!!
Rich H |
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talbot
United Kingdom
718 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 12:59:04
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| My original distributor M type doesn't have any bob weights so the only way to advance or retard the spark is by the manual leaver. Am I right in thinking it does not therfore have an advance curve ? If this is the case what can I compare the original VW one to ? Will the standard beetle advance curve be better than non at all ? Also a message for Sam - I have looked in a workshop manual for a beetle and the distributer doesn't have a vac advance. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2006 : 21:09:00
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My guess (only a guess) is that the VW advance curve will be quite acceptable but not perfect. Can anyone advise? I guess also that when the driver advances and retards the ignition manually he is in effect using his own instinct, as best he can, to create a suitable advance curve.
I must confess to not quite grasping how the automatic distributor is adjusted other than by changing the weights and or springs. Can Bosch tell us what we need and supply whatever is needed to adjust the distributor to the optimum advance curve for our engines ?  Sorry, not too many questions I hope, but this is all a learning curve for me.
Sam |
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 10:31:46
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I use the 009 distributor as supplied. The one I have on the PB has about 25 degrees of advance which starts at about 1200rpm and gets to full advance at about 2800rpm. I believe the advance curve on an original distributor started at 2000rpm and reached itÆs maximum at 4000rpm. The important thing is to make sure that at maximum advance it is not firing at more than 40 degrees BTDC, I personally set the ignition timing so that on maximum advance it fires at 38 degrees BTDC and do not worry what the static timing is. I also do not worry about the advance curve starting earlier than original but this could be altered, if necessary, by fitting stronger springs onto the weights.
Peter.
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John Reid
United Kingdom
705 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 21:38:54
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There is quite a lot of Internet information on the Bosch 009 if you are prepared to wade through it, including reference to the slight retard for No 3 cylinder on a VW engine. It would be interesting to get to the bottom of this specification, because all the people I know who use the 009 on Triple-M engines are more than happy with the result.
John R |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
705 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2006 : 10:29:51
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Paul,
There is no website as such, but when I typed Bosch 009 into Google it came up with lots of hits - hence my comment "If you are prepared to wade through it". I should have made that clearer.
Without too much trouble I found information on the advance characteristics, but as I was at work (!) at the time I didn't log anything. It may be worth someone doing the homework and putting an article in the Bulletin - which reminds me that I feel it would be a good idea if we had a published Register book dealing with technical hints and tips. Or a separate section in the website summarising useful answers to technical questions in this forum?
John |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1640 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2006 : 12:09:07
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Paul pop in Bosch 009 and quite a lot of info comes up. Looks like Bosch dont make the 009 any more. Also there are various advance curves for this model. I just phoned around and was offered a Bosch unit for ú69-50 and a Kasser made unit ( possibly the Argentinian copy ) for ú47-50 both plus VAT. So which one shall I get to keep as a spare ?
I agree with you Peter about the advance curve but I have found that with modern fuels there is not much power improvement beyond about 35 deg maximum advance on a non supercharged engine. At the end of the day each engine will be slightly different dependant on a number of factors and the only way to ascertain the optimum advance for your engine is to either put it on a dyno or the car on a rolling road or by road testing in the time honoured fashion.
I recently helped a friend tune and set up his P type. He did not want the expense of a rolling road so I set it up to 35 deg max advance and we did quite a lot of road testing with different settings before concluding that the 35 deg worked best. He has a raised CR and was on standard fuel with a lead replacenment plus octane booster added. His advance curve on a rebuilt Lucas dissy ran from 1500 to 3000 rpm
The ultimate solution is to put the engine on a dyno or the car on a rolling road to ascertain the optimum advance at each 500 rpm stage of the period that the dissy is advancing. You then need to get your distributor tuned to this advance curve by changing the springs or bob weights to suit. This can all be an expensive and time consuming exercise and for most people if your car starts ok, pulls well and does not pink during the period of advance then I would not worry too much.
The American Mallory distributor incorporates an adjustable advance curve but I dont know whether they do a body that can be fitted to our engines.
Now shall I get the Bosch or copy or does someone know of a cheaper source ?
Terry Holden |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
705 Posts |
Posted - 13/04/2006 : 13:23:59
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For information, I bought my 009 from German and Swedish. www.gsfcarparts.com. Their part number is 92010 and the Bosch number is 0 231 178 009; it was in a Bosch box and was made in Brasil. I paid ú38 + VAT in 2003, and this has now become ú69.50 + VAT!
John R |
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