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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2013 : 17:16:38
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This thread is a spin off from the M Type 4 speed gearbox identity thread. I feel close to finding the M and D 4-speed gearbox model numbers but there is some difficulty in pinning these down.
Obviously the fact a 4-speed gearbox fits an M-type very well and even has the correct clutch pedal and has been in the car since way before the owner was born, does not prove it was fitted by or came from MG.
Thanks to Dave Shattock's contribution on another thread and other sources the 4-speed Minor/MG gearbox model number list I have is as follows -
Morris Minor
.. '74 '
Morris Minor
.. '110' (Synchromesh Introduced 1934)
M-type
. '??'
D-type
... '??'
J1 and J2
. ' 72'
PA
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... '135 Single breather Gearbox '
PA
. '165 Two Breather Gearbox'
PB
... '199'
So far the 4-speed model numbers do not appear to interchange among Wolseley, MG and Morris (even though Morris Minor and some Wolseley gearboxes are often found in MG's).
Does the list look reasonable? Any additions corrections or improvements would be welcome.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 04/12/2013 17:32:18 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 00:51:18
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Perhaps I have approached the question from entirely the wrong direction, as though the key is the gearbox itself but
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is it possible the model number on the gearbox is not so much a code for the gearbox as the engine it was to fit? Is it possible the Model Code Number represented engines? If the two PA gearboxes and the PB box are all the same gearbox could the code designate the engine each gearbox was intended to fit?
This would suggest the same model marking could appear on different gearboxes when an engine ( a late M or D) has two gearbox options unless the 3-speed was under a different designation system.
Has someone not sorted all this out long ago?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 05/12/2013 00:59:23 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 09:26:21
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This could be the comprehensive list at last- almost -
I have just received a list which is sadly rather blurred and from an as yet unknown publication (could it be an Infoletter?). Dave Shattock kindly forwarded it but cannot recall its origin. Does anyone know where this list was published? Oddly it is headed "Engine Numbers" not "Gearbox Model Numbers."
It seems to answer the D-type gearbox model code question with '52' but is this associated with a 3 or 4-speed box? This and the heading causes me to wonder if the code stamped on the gearbox is the code for the engine model it is associated with. There is no code for the M-type but a possible reference to the introduction of '12/12' valve timing.
Can anyone help?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 05/12/2013 09:28:03 |
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Robin Hamblett
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 09:28:59
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Hi Sam
This is published in the hard copy register, published revised every year.
Regards
Robin
J2 J3666 & J3 3764 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 10:23:10
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Thanks Robin. I have ordered a copy. There is clearly scope to broaden the readership.
Sam |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2013 : 22:15:46
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I fear this thread has clearly died to judge by the lack of responses but I think I have seen the light
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There is very good evidence that some M and D-types had ENV gearboxes from new.
Barry Foster's article " M.G. Triple-M Gearboxes" mentions in regard to 4-speed boxes-
"Some M-types were fitted with an E.N.V. box and these can be identified by the spider to take the fabric drive joint."
Barry also states -
"The remaining types of manual boxes fitted from 1932 onwards are all based on the same Wolseley 4-speed unit which first appears in the J series."
That the 4-speed Wolseley unit "first appears in the J series" and not the D or M is a detail I missed previously.
Since M production finished mid 1932 and D production also finished mid 1932 this would appear to say the M-type and D-type never had a Wolseley gearbox fitted from the start and any which are seen today have been fitted afterwards.
The reason no one has provided an MG M or D number on a 4-speed Wolseley gearbox is simply because it was never fitted to either before they left the factory. If Barry is correct then the only way a D or M could have a factory fitted Wolseley gearbox would be if the car was held over or returned to the factory afterwards for modification.
Evidence to the contrary welcome
And yes, I know the Wolseley 4-speed actually first appeared in the Wolseley Hornet in September 1931 but I think Barry's article is only in regard to M.G.s
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 08/12/2013 22:27:02 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 13/12/2013 : 15:18:09
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Robin I have sent you an email related to this topic. Many thanks for your advice about a more up to date copy of the Register which arrived a couple of days ago. It is certainly an improvement on my previous copies.
Sam |
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 14/12/2013 : 11:40:40
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Hi,
I cannot be specific for M-types, as so few of the old Service files remain, but only one D-type was fitted with an ENV 'box from new, and the car was also Factory fitted with a supercharger, that now owned on the Register by Carlo Schmidt in Luxwmbourg. There is no evidence for any other D being fitted with any four-speed box by the Factory.
There was a Moss box available on the aftermarket from 1930 for fitment to Midgets (unspecified).
Probably a handful of M's were fitted with the ENV box,(I have found none, although know that one was tried in the supercharged M built at Abingdon) but please do remember that the £35 advertised price was a large addition to the car price (£185), and would not have been especially attractive. The Factory could not have thought fitment worthwhile, as all the 12/12 cars were originally fitted with the standard three-speed!
There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that the Morris 'box was used on the M... after all it wasn't fitted to Wolseleys or Morrises until the 1932 season, by which time the J-type MG was on the stocks.
All the best,
Mike
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 16/12/2013 : 19:29:36
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Thanks Mike. Other sources suggest ENV gearboxes too. The D-type chassis in the sales brochure gives a tantalising glimpse of something interesting.
And a keen eyed observer has also spotted the 4-speed described in the brochure has ENV ratios .
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 16/12/2013 19:30:47 |
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