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Tim Luffingham
United Kingdom
342 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2016 : 10:30:44
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I'm just 9 months into PA ownership, and perhaps 6 months enjoying this Triple-M Register and forum. Still very much the new boy on the block.
I'd dearly love to know more history on my 4 seater PA. No 1392. Reg PV 1660.
With the car came a few documents such as a copy of the original sales invoice to Mr P Rayner, Ipswich on 22nd October 1934. She was green, I believe two tone Dublin and Ulster Green.
I understand she was on the Isle of Wight at some stage in the 1960's, and possibly back into the 1950's.
Various parts receipts from Hampshire suppliers in the 1990's. I even have an invoice for 1882 F Francs from a French tannery for 14kgs of leather in 1995. None of the above have names attached to the paperwork.
I then jump to some photographs of her restoration around 2005, and in a pretty poor state. This shows her as red though maybe this was a donor body shell?
My question is there a recognised search process for anyone wishing to find out the history of their MG car - without several hundred of us clogging up the forum searching for the same.
DVLA, MG Club at Abingdon perhaps?
There are some contributors who seem to have the information at their fingertips, e.g. " not heard of since 1938!".
Any pointers much appreciated.
Tim Luffingham PA 1392
timluffingham@gmail.com
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 11:34:24
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Hello Tim, I very much enjoy my restorations, for me its part of the restoration process to try to piece together the history of that project and maintain indepth diaries, photos etc. For my two J2s, I first spoke with Angela who is the widow of the cars owners. Then I contacted ' The Kithead Trust ' who hold early records and the MG Club. Detective work should produce results and putting your article on here is an excellent start, it help identify the second J2 which until then was anonymous, Angela knew only that it was a donor car and a non runner, she knew the registration number and nothing more.
Best of luck. 
Chris ( J2353 ) & ( J4129 )
Brighton, East Sussex & Paphos, Cyprus. |
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Tim Luffingham
United Kingdom
342 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 12:28:33
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Chris - Thank you.
I'd never heard of The Kithead Trust. Just looked at their website, and will send off an email.
Top Tip :))
Tim |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3677 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 12:54:32
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Hello Tim, and many thanks for your posting.
You have probably read that the Register is in the throes of reorganising the database of all the many surviving Triple-M cars. Something around 4,000 of these are known to have survived out of the original production of over 11,000, so as you can imagine this is no small task.
To make things easier the Register committee recently decided to divide and the individual model types and as misfortune would have it I have picked up the PAs.
Your car was a fairly recent addition to the register; it was allocated Register number 3403 in 2005.
What little we do know of the car tells us that it was originally a 4-seater, painted green with green trim, and is said to have some form of trials history, although the details of this are not known.
The factory file reveals that the first owner was one R.J.Rayner but apart from him we have only one prior ownership detail prior to your own acquisition of the car. Indeed it seems likely that you probably have more information regarding the vehicle than the Register currently possesses, so I will contact you offline to suggest ways of sharing information and data.
Other than that, and the suggestions that Chris has made, you might wish to contact John Innes at the MG Car Club at Abingdon who will be happy, for a modest fee, to provide you with copies of any documentation and correspondence that may exist on the original build file for your car - incidentally, not everybody may know that many years ago Mike Allison was successful in rescuing a great number of original factory files from the skips into which they had been thrown away, so thankfuly there is now a lot of history reposing in Abingdon!
Dick Morbey
PA/PB 0743
Frieth, Oxon, UK |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3099 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 13:35:13
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I found the chassis file was very useful. I was able to discover the first owner of my M-type was an actor named Jack Raine. The name and address in St John's Wood cross checked confirming I had the correct Jack Raine.
At the time he was married to Binnie Hale who was a very successful actress on stage, screen and disc (she had numerous well known hits).
All this information (and much more) flowed from the entry in the chassis file. I have yet to discover the original registration which is not quoted in the file. Not a sporting history but interesting none the less. Thanks to John Innes at the MG Car Club at Abingdon.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 07/01/2016 13:41:25 |
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Tim Luffingham
United Kingdom
342 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 17:51:41
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Dick,
I have your email and will forward all that I have - Thank you.
Sam,
What a beautiful M type and piece of history to go with her. They say ' if walls could speak'....if only cars could too. Though some may suggest that they do!
cheers |
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g waiting
United Kingdom
727 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 19:56:47
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Hi,
Well if this one could speak it would say "buy me", I do believe it is for sale.
G. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3099 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 20:23:09
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Ah, Garry I'm afraid its true. I hope Jack and Binnie will forgive me.
Sam |
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dbass
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 21:34:01
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Hello Tim
Must recommend getting the chassis file, i was lucky to get early letters from the owners of both my F types who complained to MG about problems with their cars, i wish i had made more of a effort to research the early owners as the second owner of Magna F0708 a gentleman named E.E. Vielle who had owned the car while in the R.A.F.at the start of ww2 was amazingly still alive aged 103 but sadly passed away last year before i could meet him.
Good luck with your search
David F0708 |
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Tim Luffingham
United Kingdom
342 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 09:00:25
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Ah - what a shame David. I'm sure he would have been as keen to be reunited with his car, as you to meet him.
Well you've spurred me on to go through a buff envelope of receipts in detail, and found one typewritten letter from Barry Walker dated 12 April 1976 ( must have been his Dad) to Mr Alan Reed, Gosport.
Another in December 1984 from Naylor Brothers to the same Mr Alan Reed, Inverkip Close, Lee on Solent. Electoral roll no longer shows him at that address. I wonder if anyone has any information?
Many of receipts are from around that time, and for big items, so I'm guessing he did a re build.
Will keep at it, and if anything of interest, I'll post it up.
Tim
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Max Headroom
United Kingdom
292 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 09:57:00
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Tim - never give up in the search. I have owned my car since 1985 when I was a young(ish) upstart in my twenties, and I'm uncovering information - even now.
When I first acquired the car I spent well over a week in a library going through all the UK telephone books trying to find the name of the first owner from the chassis file - even if I could just find family members or descendants, it would have been important to me.
From a list of literally hundreds of names, I found the man on the chassis file with the first telephone call (so an element of luck was involved!).
After exchanging many letters, we met up and he told me huge swathes of information about the car; information that no chassis file could ever divulge. Even though he kept my car for only 18 months he remembered it well. Chatting with him at the time was literally like stepping right back into the past and hugely exciting!
He told me there were many photos of the car but that they were all 'lost' during the war - (what he meant by 'lost' I never found out - I'm not sure if he meant 'mislaid' or 'destroyed'). But I'm still searching for those photos even today.
Approximately two years ago, I stumbled upon a photo on the internet, having absent-mindedly typed in the chassis number rather than the registration number - but the photo was of my car and surprisingly, taken during a trial.
Amazingly Colin Butchers found the same photo was used in Motor Sport Magazine reporting on the trial, this gave me another name, and it turned out to be the second owner. (Thank you again Colin I will be eternally grateful!)
Using genealogy sites and more research, I eventually located the son of the second owner, who in turn, was able to give me more pictures of the car and showed me the trophies both his father AND his mother won with my car! He also believes he may still have the same car badges that were on the front of the car in the photos!
From all this, and yet more research, I found the car had been involved with the Cheltenham Motor Club, who let me go through their archive which revealed even more, from newspaper cuttings to actual routes that were taken on more locally organised trials.
Perhaps the hardest part is knowing where to start your search, but my advice would be to start at the earliest known dates as I did, and follow it as far as you can. I even went and visited addresses and asked questions of people living around the area in case they knew the family, yes it was cheeky knocking on doors, but such was my determination.
You could also, start with the last known history and try to work backwards.
I now have a list of owners names from three(!) recently discovered old log books 1953 - 1963 and I'm still trying to trace those people.
So the moral of all this is NEVER GIVE UP THE HUNT!
There is probably a mass of information out there on all our cars just waiting to be found, and no time should ever be wasted in finding it.
________________________________________________________________________
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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Inside every older person is a younger person – wondering what the hell happened.
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colintf
United Kingdom
1501 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 11:12:54
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Is BF5508 for sale? Or did I misunderstand ?
Many thanks
Colin
Photographer for MGCC (LeMans Classic, Oldtimer Grand Prix etc) & MG Motor (BTCC 2012-5) and a big prewar MG fan, who would love to own one.
http://www.triple-mracing.com/ |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 11:25:31
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May I add my research. We have all read about my success with J4129 and D.H. Cottingham. With my Rover hat. I bought in 1980 ( and am currently restoring ) a 1934 Rover 10hp. I had original sales invoices & letters sent to a Ernest Mullens, a buff log book referred to a Beryl & a Stanley Hayman that came in the ' brown envelope '. It took me 30 years to track down the descendants of Ernest Mullens, it turns out that Ernest was the father of Beryl who was the sister of Stanley, each inherited on the death of the previous, I purchased from the person who bought from the estate. Having now found the two direct grandchildren of Ernest, we have a great friendship, meet up regularily to discuss the family and the car. Clare inherited virtually all of Ernests possessions, she has donated to me the picnic basket , contents and travel rug that Ernest purchased with the car in 1934, also Ernests tin helmet ( he was ARP in WW2 ) and lots of photos. Her brother Graham has described much of the use of the rear back seat in the ' swinging sixties ', including ( his description ) using the ankle straps ( door pillar hand straps ). Research can be fun...and explosive ! Better leave it there !!
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Chris ( J2353 ) & ( J4129 )
Brighton, East Sussex & Paphos, Cyprus. |
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Tim Luffingham
United Kingdom
342 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 12:23:16
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Gentlemen - inspired by your encouragement and success, this mornings research has produced a more or less continuous link from now, back to the mid 1970's - only another 40 years to go! I still have to establish contact though the details are known.
Great stories - both of them. Chris, I wonder if those rear door handle ( ankle ) straps could be an optional extra. 'Now it takes me all night to do what I used to do all night' - sorry a bit of thread creep coming in :)) |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 13:04:07
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..Well done ..you have the bug ! Those door pillar hanging straps are available from Paul Becks...where would one fit them on a J2 ?
Chris ( J2353 ) & ( J4129 )
Brighton, East Sussex & Paphos, Cyprus. |
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Max Headroom
United Kingdom
292 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 13:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by MG Maverick
Those door pillar hanging straps are available from Paul Becks...where would one fit them on a J2 ?
...You'd be surprised! 
________________________________________________________________________
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
________________________________________________________________________
Inside every older person is a younger person – wondering what the hell happened.
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