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sullivan
USA
423 Posts |
 Posted - 25/04/2016 : 16:53:32
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While working to break loose my engine last week my neighbors who own a auto restoration company showed me two techniques for releasing the engine.
1) put the car in 4th gear and gently rock the car back and forth.
2) Put car in neutral, install the crank and apply a light lift to the handle of the crank.
My engine still has not come loose after a week of penetrating oil and vinegar. The rust in the pads though under the car I think are a promising sign that the pistons are likely rusted in place and hopefully not some other problem.
I plan to keep the gentle approach going.
Best,
Brian W Sullivan |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 25/04/2016 : 18:35:27
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Brian,
I sympathize with you. When I was restoring the engine for PB0560, I found it had been sitting for almost 40 years. The pistons were seized solid. I found the way that worked, was to remove the engine, take off the sump, remove the connecting rod caps, remove the head, and inspect everything carefully. I found what appeared to be a layer of foam rubber lining the sump. After peeling it out, it turned out to be oil that had congealed (probably on its way back to again becoming a dinosaur). The oil in the cylinders had also combined with moisture and some rust to form the best glue known to mankind. After weeks of soaking with every solvent I could think of, the only way I could get the cylinders to move was to tap the top of the pistons with a piece of wood and a hammer.
I know you probably don't want to remove the engine, but that is certainly the safest way. You will know the condition of everything and do as little damage as possible. It would be an expensive shame if you broke something like a connecting rod, the crank, or worse of all, the cylinder walls.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560 |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3244 Posts |
Posted - 25/04/2016 : 19:05:41
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I certainly agree with Lew, the only approach is to remove the engine, dismantle it and ascertain the condition of everything. To try and run it "as is" would be to risk serious and expensive damage.
George
L2023 |
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sullivan
USA
423 Posts |
Posted - 25/04/2016 : 22:44:03
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Lew & George,
I will follow your guidance. I will be patient at least another week to see if it will release. I then plan to remove the engine after that and pull the head and sump.
It would be much better to know what the condition of the "innards" are anyway.
Best,
Brian
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i.thomson
United Kingdom
409 Posts |
Posted - 26/04/2016 : 09:53:10
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I would certainly agree with George and Lew. Even if it came free the chances of the rings working correctly are slim. With an unknown engine at least a partial strip is necessary. Often tapping (or hitting) the top of the pistons with the wooden shaft of a hammer will loosen them but if the worst comes to the worst it is better to break the pistons than risk damage, and even more expense. I would like to at least renew the rings, and to do this the ring gaps would need to be measured to see if this is feasible. Equally the bores and crank bearings need a close inspection and the crank needs to come out anyway to properly clean the oil passages.
Good luck.
Ian thomson |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3411 Posts |
Posted - 26/04/2016 : 12:35:18
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I have turned the images round to save my poor old neck
Nick
Webmaster |
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AVP342
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 26/04/2016 : 17:19:25
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Brian, may I suggest that you check the positions of the pistons through the plug holes first. because if the pistons are on top dead centre or bottom dead centre
the pistons will not move however hard you hit them.
Derek |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3114 Posts |
Posted - 26/04/2016 : 19:28:30
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Many years ago with a stuck MG VA engine I got away with placing a suitable socket on the starting handle nut and exerting pressure alternately clockwise and anti clockwise with a torque wrench. Apart from soaking the pistons with a penetrating oil, trying to turn the crank alternate directions seemed to be the key.Once there was a small amount of movement it freed off fairly easily and started without difficulty and ran well. The cork clutch was stuck too.
Sam |
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sullivan
USA
423 Posts |
Posted - 26/04/2016 : 22:53:14
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More great suggestions.
Derek, The bevel gear on the cam is just off TDC so it is possible the motor is in fact at TDC. I will check.
Nick, my photos are not tilted on my originals but when posting they tip over?
Sorry about your neck...
Sam, I may employ the socket and Torque Wrench just to see if it may loosen ?
Also I have now been in touch with a British car specialist. I asked about white metaling here in the States. He suggested cutting the con rods and putting bearings onto them?
Your thoughts?
In for the long haul..
Brain
Brian W Sullivan |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1731 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2016 : 08:46:37
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Brian
A few thoughts that the P type people might like to elaborate on.
I have seen a broken P Type crank shaft. Certainly with the 2 bearing J Type a new modern crank is wise. You can get modern P Type ones as well, I think and with them come modern conrods, with shells. Going down this route means the bottom end of your engine is likely to last for ever! Expensive but...
There is discussion about shells vs white metal on this site I believe.
The other, to me more difficult, area is rebuilding the cylinder head and if spending money and the budget is limited it may be that you prefer to spend it here. References for engine rebuild are in various publications, Malcolm Green's 4 cylinder cars book Graham Howell's rebuilding a J Type book etc... And the Forum here will provide guidance too as we all love putting in our two pennies worth!!!
Cheers
P |
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sullivan
USA
423 Posts |
Posted - 27/04/2016 : 16:44:06
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Peter,
I am deciding now on exactly these things. Her is what I think I know about the engine. It looks like brand new on the outside. wonderful old paint clean and has a copper head gasket. All the copper tubing has been chromed. Oil tubes, fuel lines etc. The starter motor is even chromed...
One of my restorer friends looked over the engine and notes that it has defiantly been rebuilt.
Also I know the car has been sitting idle since at least 1982. The previous owner was an engineer and may have done the rebuild on the engine. There is little but some carbon in the exhaust valves.
The interior of the water jackets have been painted with the same red paint as the exterior of the engine? The gear box shifts wonderfully no play in the gears at all.(He probably did that too.)
So the next step will be to open up the engine and see exactly has been done & what is going on inside. I have noted that there is one bearing that seems short on the lifters. There is a very thin stainless washer at the end of it that is slightly cupped and slides perhaps 1/8" back and forth.
Best,
Brian |
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JDoe
United Kingdom
85 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2016 : 10:02:38
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I have seen an engine freed off by taking off the head and pouring very hot engine oil into the bores...
Just have to make sure that the memsaab doesn't catch you using her best sauce pan
HTH |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3114 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2016 : 13:31:35
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Perhaps filling the cooling system with very hot water has already been suggested to encourage a little more expansion and oil penetration. With care to avoid scalds it should not do any harm.
Sam |
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Bob Grunau
Canada
290 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2016 : 13:54:52
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I used a large pry bar through the starter mounting hole and levered backwards and forwards on the flywheel ringgear. Finally freed the engine on an MG TD. This after weeks of various penetrating oils including 50-50 mix or Acetone and ATF.
Bob, Canada |
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sullivan
USA
423 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2016 : 17:02:47
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SO,
Has anyone used very hot ATF fluid to break an engine loose?
My wife is keeping her eye on me since that last powder coat job in the Oven....
Kindly,
Brian
Brian W Sullivan |
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LewPalmer
USA
3251 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2016 : 22:19:55
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Careful! Like any petroleum product, that stuff can flash over. By comparison, your wife will have little to say about powder coating in the oven.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560 |
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