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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
 Posted - 17/11/2008 : 15:08:25
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Does anyone know the correct original engine colour pantone reference numbers for the factory red, blue and green colours??
Rich H |
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LewPalmer
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 00:01:02
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Pantone colors will not translate to paint. It is a CYMK system used in the printing industry. However, courtesy of several folks, I do have a current PPG color number for the red. I'll be in the garage later this evening and will dig it out (if I remember). The shade, in case it is of any interest and I remember correctly, is virtually identical to MGB Carmine Red and virtually identical to the darker of the two MMM body red colors.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
Edited by - LewPalmer on 18/11/2008 00:02:13 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 02:14:16
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That red color paint is PPG Concept (DCC Acrylic Urethane) # DCC 75391.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
Edited by - LewPalmer on 18/11/2008 02:14:36 |
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rodb
New Zealand
260 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 06:17:41
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The Carmine Red is BMC & British Standard Code RD14, the Green is BMC British Standard Code GN25. I do not have the Blue. These BS Codes may translate to the printing industry.
Regards Rod. |
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etlanpa
United Kingdom
560 Posts |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 16:21:08
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Thank you everyone for the interesting and helpful responses. Any more responses appreciated.
Rich H |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 21:46:57
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Carmine red is a darker shade of red than either one of the two shades used by MG on our engines. Carmine is the same as the dark red used on the later MGA engine. The reds used by MG in our period were both a mid shade of red almost identical to the shade used by the Post Office here in the UK but one has more orange than the other. All the evidence also points to them using two different shades of blue on racing engines - it probably depended on what tin happened to be open on the day. Opinions vary on the blue but parts with original paint I have seen over the years clearly show the same two distinctly different shades.
The green seems to have been the same colour all the time. Certainly I have only ever seen one shade of green on original components.
It is interesting that one set of works photos that I have clearly show a J engine with both the sump and the oil filter swans neck and the all the water jacket bolt heads painted. You dont often see these items painted today.
TH |
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LewPalmer
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 23:42:07
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Terry, I was working from (my rather poor) memory, so I could well be wrong about the share of red being similar to Carmine red. However, the PPG number I listed is the correct engine red as confirmed by color swatches kindly offered by youself (I believe) as well as from Tom Metcalf. The swatches were scanned and I was given some of the resulting paint by Gary Krukowski. It was, perhaps, lighter than the Carmine red I recently had an MGB painted in.
Cheers,
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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LewPalmer
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18/11/2008 : 23:44:51
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I also am of the opinion (for what that's worth) that the blue was used on bespoke (not just strictly recing) engines. This is evidenced by several responses I received to a surver I did some two or three years ago. Most were racing engines, but there were also some blue engines on cars with specially ordered engines.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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rodb
New Zealand
260 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 06:54:04
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RD14 red is a very old MG colour. It has had many names over the years, starting from Emgee/MG Red, Regency Red, Reno Red, Coral Red, and Carmine Red. (This is correct for MGA Engines) This Red RD14 is a much lighter shade than the T series Red called Autumn Red RD6.
Saratoga Red is one Red that I have not been able to correlate. The SVW MG range had Emgee Red RD14 as the lighter shade and Maroon RD6 as the darker shade.
My years of research has only revealed 3 Reds in consistent use, RD14 being the lightest shade and the darkest being RD21 called Maroon or Embassy Maroon. RD6 being the other. I May well have overlooked another Red, so are always willing to learn.
If a thin wash of red painted on cast iron can have a lighter finish than a heavier coat or coats. Also the paint quality in the thirties was certainly different to today. If a factory worker did minimal stirring of the paint in a tin the resulting spray or brush coat would be a lighter shade than a well stirred tin. This could well result in different shades on factory vehicles from the same tin.
I agree on the green shade being consistent, although if poorly mixed and thinly sprayed, this will also result in a lighter finish.
Regards Rod
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 10:46:01
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| I know you chaps are rather dedicated to authenticity and I went through that stage many years ago with my TC. Nevertheless there must have been variations from batch to batch in the old days so it is practically impossible to be entirely specific. Nowadays I follow the original colours but, so far as the shade is concerned, adopt the practice of what looks correct (and/or looks the best) and what suits the car. What may not be generally known is that ordinary house enamel (I use good quality ones) is perfectly suitable for engines, there is a much larger range of colours and I have found it durable to the point of indestructability (!). I spray prominent items such as tappet covers and side plates on XPAG engines, for example, and the "engine shields" on my F-type, etc. As an aside, my TC is a 1947 model (with the many "early" features) and the firewall, etc is/was a grey-green which we think was left-over bomber cockpit paint! |
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Terry Andrews
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 20:37:05
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Hi Everyone,
I am not going to go too deeply on to all the RD numbers. I have spent ages and ages on this on our red TF 1500 years ago and trying to get the two tone reds correct for the N type. I have now found both reds for N type bodies from panels which are original. I have matched these 100 % and I have the evidence.  The colours carried out by Keen Rees were VERY nearà Dark red spot on à. but the light red only 95%.
With regards to Lew comments, I have been dealing with Tom Metcalf on body colours not ENGINE colours. Unless TERRY HOLDEN has been dealing with Tom M on ENGINE colours but I would think Tom would have me in the loop with you guys as well.
With regard to ENGINE RED I would very much like to put a spanner in the worksà.. Here goes!!!!
When I did my P type 30+ years ago I like Terry Holden thought the engine was bright red like Post Office red, and this is what I painted my P engine in.
However, I have now changed my mind.  Over the last 30 years I have had a number of engines and Colin Tieche also overhauls many Triple-M engines he has had through his hands. Colin and I have come to the conclusion that the colour was a ôvery muddy brown redö as we have both seen this colour same colour over and over again. So my P type has now got a ôvery muddy brown redö engine. My N type engines are now painted the same. The engine colour does not appear to correspond to any RD number! It is more a brown than red. This is nothing like the BMC red engine colours and is more brown than the EXPAG / EXPEG type engines.
I use Japlac on my engines and so mixed up Japlac, Burgundy Red, Dark Brown and Black until I achieved the exact colour I have on 3 original engine blocks I had at home at the time. These were acquired from different sources and at different times and the same colour as the blocks that Colin had.
From want has been said in the past, I think the factory were not too fussy about the engine colours in the middle 1930Æs and that they could well have ôtoshed overö with what was at hand. I do not think we should get too hung up about all this. However, I have decided to do my cars from examples which I am certain are very original.
But I want hard evidence to be convinced to change my mind. But please consider the amount of original research and care I have undertaken in the last 30 years.
I am now ready to be shot down in flamesà.
Regardsà.. Terry ANDREWS
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 19/11/2008 : 21:13:43
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Terry, Lew etc I do not disagree with any of the above remarks. I too have seen N type engines painted in the darker shade. What I did many years ago was to look at lots of original J2 J4,P,L N and K3 engine parts that I had and several other people had including those many parts which Colin and Eric had as well. It was pretty obvious which parts still had their original paint. My conclusions were drawn from examining all these parts. There was litle doubt from the parts that Colin and I looked at then that the the red most commonly used was the post office red but as has already been said I doubt whether the factory stuck with one shade or one manufacturer so there would almost certainly have been variations. My first ever J2 was definately PO red and it had never had an engine repaint.
I'll send the old boy your love when I see him in the morning !
Will give you a buzz at the weekend.
TH |
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LewPalmer
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2008 : 00:03:46
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No argument from me. I just find it amusing that after 47 years of the Register's existence that this subject is the basis of so much discussion - STILL!
As I have often said: "The factory was never concerned with originality."
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
Edited by - LewPalmer on 20/11/2008 00:06:45 |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2008 : 09:45:30
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| I think you chaps need to spend more time behind the wheel and less time looking under the bonnet! |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2008 : 11:37:20
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I think I now have my answer to my original posting and thank you to all for such valuable contributions which confirm my thoughts.
I have numerous blocks and spare engine parts possibly like most of you and the original colours seem to vary so much. I suspect that as this was a relatively cheap sports car and built in small numbers, then there was most likely a lack of continuity through production runs. They changed the continuity on the car specs often enough and engine paint shades I suspect was a fairly insignificant issue in terms of continuity.
New legislation was anounced recently that production of oil based engine enammel paint is to cease in exchange for the poor quality water based substitutes now creeping in. Vintage MG Parts have been in discussions to take order of a high quality oil based engine enammel which I have already used on my J4 style engine and which is rather impressive interms of finish. The ease of brush application, deep colour pigment, high shine and oil/ fuel resistant qualities are excellent and this product is specifically formulated for the job and is not simple yatching paint sometimes used on engines.
I can have colour mixed to our spec but your answers conclude that there is no correct shade to aim for. Therefore we will be going for "approximately correct" shades of blue and red in 250 ML tins, which is enough for 1 to 2 engines with 2 good coats. These will be entered on the vinatge MG Parts website very shortly for the benefit of all but in a limited batch
Thank you again for everyones input
Regards
Rich H |
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