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Franklin
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 28/07/2023 : 02:44:32
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| Hi, I have a question regarding the Build Date & the Release Date terminology used in the records for our cars. In my case the Build Date for PA 1623 is listed as 01 Oct. 1934. Is this the beginning manufacturing date or would this be the date when the car rolled off the assembly line in completed condition? The Release Date for this car is 11 May 1935. What does "release" mean? Is this when the car was handed over by MG to the general dealership network? Is it normal to have so much time between the Build Date & Release Date? Perhaps it complicates things but this particular car is an Airline Coupe. Therefore when the chassis was finished at MG it would have gone to Carbodies for the body to be fabricated. Does anyone know if Carbodies returned the cars to MG? I was under the impression that the Airlines were released to the dealer network directly from Carbodies but the Release Date of May 1935 suggests the car was returned MG. Additionally, this car was originally Duo Grey. The MG PA Airline Coupe on display at the Olympia Motor show in Oct. 1934 was also Duo Grey. It would only be possible for PA 1623 to be the show car, if the Build Date indicated the car was complete with the Airline Coupe body in place. Thanking you in advance for any information and thoughts you might have. Best Regards, Franklin |
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KevinA
New Zealand
681 Posts |
Posted - 28/07/2023 : 05:57:02
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Hi Franklin.
Issue date is a more common one, which is when the guarantee plate was issued. Are you sure of the accuracy of your terminology from the records? |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 28/07/2023 : 07:18:01
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Franklin,
I’d share Kevin's concern about the accuracy of your terminology. The guarantee plate for PA1623 was issued on 1 October 1934. As far as can be determined, this was the date when the engine, already numbered, was installed in the chassis on the line and the car effectively came into existence. It is not clear whether the chassis already had its number stamped on it at this point, or whether this was done at the end of the line. The date of issue of the guarantee plate was recorded in a ledger which is held by the MG Car Club.
This is the cover of the ledger for the J Types
After quite a delay, PA1623 was delivered to A. Gell and Co, Bradford on 11 May 1935. This information is to be found on the card sent from the Sales Department to the Service Department and again, these cards are held by the MG Car Club.
Nowhere do the terms 'Build Date' and 'Release Date' appear in these two factory records.
Simon J
J3437 |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 28/07/2023 07:36:53 |
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Franklin
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 03:21:20
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| Many thanks for responding and trying to help. The car actually had some fairly extensive records in the chassis file folder and Arthur Gell was the 4th dealer to have this car and he sold it in Nov. 1935. The terminology I am referring to is listed in the car file found on the Triple-M Register site in the MY Triple Ms section under the Factory File Tab. Click on this tab and the following info is listed in the left hand column (almost as though it was from an index card): Car Type - PA Type, Chassis #1623, Engine #1886 AP, Body No (MG) is blank, Body No (Carbodies) is blank, Trim Colour is blank, Date build (sorry I listed this as Build Date) is 01 Oct. 1934 & finally the last item is Release Date 11 May 1935. So yes I am certain of the terminology and it is a part of the car's history as posted by the MMM Register. It isn't my terminology & it is not data that I submitted. I have 20-30 pages of history on the car from the MGCC chassis files but the Date Build & Release Date only appear on this Factory File entry, which was not a part of the records copied and sent to me. Nor do I have the card that Simon refers to saying that the car went to A Gell on 11 May 1935. I will write to the MGCC to try to obtain a copy of this. I really appreciate any and all information regarding the meaning of these terms. Thank You and Best Regards, Franklin |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 07:04:56
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Franklin,
I think the terms 'Build Date' and 'Release Date' may have come from a summary of the chassis file data that Mike Allison prepared some years ago. But it’s clear from the title of the ledger that the 'Build Date' is actually the date the guarantee plate was issued. Regarding the delivery date, this is the card I referred to, but for my car.
You can see the delivery date is specified which Mike Allison seems to have referred to as the 'Release Date'. In the case of my car, that date is consistent with the car being collected from the main agent on 18 August, which date is found on the Guaranteed card completed by the first owner.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Franklin
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 17:56:41
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| Hi Simon, My guess is that your guess is correct! Many thanks. Especially for sharing this image of your J2' card. I do not have a similar card for my PA so I will contact the MGCC and see if they have one available for my car. The documents I've gathered so far indicate that an unusual amount of time transpired from the issuance of the guarantee plate in Oct. 1934 and the sale of the car in November of 1935. It's possible that this car was a works demonstrator for a period of time but its hard to find anything that will confirm that assumption. Best Regards, Franklin |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1748 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 19:14:37
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Franklin
Do you have the chassis file for your car? This should have much of the build info and whether it was a works demonstrator. It may have been used as a demo car by the distributor as was, we think, my J which spent a long time unsold...
The Club office will supply a copy of your file for a small fee which depends on how many pages there are...
Cheers
P |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 19:36:50
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Franklin,
The person to contact for chassis file copies is Ineke Sherman - ineke@mgcc.co.uk
Simon J
J3437 |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3687 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 21:34:56
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MGCC members (or members of an MG Club that is affiliated to the MGCC) pay a lower rate for this service!
Dick Morbey, Register Secretary
PA-PB 0743
Frieth, Oxon, UK
secretary@triple-mregister.org |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2023 : 22:33:06
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Dick (franklin) Sprafke: Your PA1623 was built as an Airline Coupe, so the build and release dates are not quite the same as the open cars. The bodies were built at Carbodies in Coventry under license from Henry W. Allingham. Running chassis were delivered to Carbodies where they were fitted with the Airline Coupe body. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the build date and release date were representative of the build and release dates from the MG factory at Abingdon. However, they still needed to be transported (or driven) to Carbodies where the body was to be built, then transported to the selling dealer. So quite a few months could have elapsed between the time the chassis was completed and the time the completed car was sold to the first owner, Mrs. Dewar in Bedford.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 06:25:11
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What do you mean by build date and release date, Lew, as these terms don’t seem to be found in the factory documentation.
Simon J
J3437 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 16:29:14
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I was simply reflecting the terminology used by Dick (Franklin). What I think he means by build date is the date it was completed by the Abingdon factory (as far as they were involved). I assume he meant Release date being the date the car was sent on to the dealership or, in the case of the Airline Coupe, Carbodies.
I was simply pointing out that in the case of an Abingdon-completed car (read open), the time span between the completion of the car (build date) and the release of the car to the dealership or end customer) would typically be quite different from an Airline Coupe which still needed to go through a build of the body.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 17:15:18
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Lew,
As I said above, the date that people refer to as the 'build date' is in fact the date the guarantee plate was issued, not the date the car was completed which isn’t, as far as I am aware, recorded anywhere. Similarly 'release date' turns out to be the date the car was delivered to the selling agent, - see the card for my car above. Perhaps the equivalent card for Franklin's car will reveal different/additional information, it being an Airline.
Simon J
J3437 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 19:30:16
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Simon, I accept your definition of the date the guarantee plate was issued. However, that still leaves open the question of what that means for an Airline Coupe. Presumably, since the running chassis left Abingdon with firewall (and likely the guarantee plate attached) would the "build date" be the same for the open cars? Maybe this is being a bit pedantic, but simply trying to answer Franklin's question. The factory file for PA1623 lists:
Date build 01 October 1934
Release date 11 May 1935
So by your comment that the build date (that's the terminology in the factory files, not mine) is when the guarantee plate was issued. So I was trying to explain why such a long period from then to the release date.
My explanation was simply that PA1623 still had to go to Coventry to have its body built, fitted, and shipped to the selling agent. So that's at least a partial explanation of the long period.
Lew
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 20:01:33
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Lew,
I’m not defining anything; I’m simply stating that for PA1623, the date of 1 October 1934 is the date the guarantee plate was issued and this date will be found in the ledger entitled 'Issue of Guarantee Plates' for P Types. Other P Types which also had their guarantee plate issued on that day were PA1620 (Airline), PA1621 (CKD Export), PA1622 (Carbodies Coupé). Can you point us to where the factory files use the terms 'Build Date' and 'Release Date' as you describe.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2628 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 20:24:00
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Intriguing Simon, your mention of a "Carbodies Coupé". I've never heard of such a car; any photos available?
Dave |
Edited by - Oz34 on 30/07/2023 20:24:31 |
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