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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
 Posted - 30/07/2023 : 20:55:38
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Nope! It was new to me too but it’s what’s listed for PA 1622. It was delivered to S.H Newsome in Coventry on 27 November and registered AHP 960 on 10 January to C.W. Lily. Nowt else known apparently. October 1 was an odd day as a University Motors Foursome Coupé (PA1619) also got its guarantee plate along with two four-seater PAs.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Tim Sharp
United Kingdom
307 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 21:11:29
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Simon
Where does one find access to the "Ledger entitled Issue of Guarantee Plates for P Types"?
Regards
Tim
Tim Sharp
PB0685 - Nuneaton |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 21:37:25
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All the factory files, including these ledgers, are held by the MG Car Club, thanks to the foresight of Mike Allison who, literally, rescued them before they were dumped by BMC or BL or whoever owned MG at the time.
As noted above, the contact at the MGCC for copies of your chassis file, including the ledger page for your car, is Ineke Sherman - email ineke@mgcc.co.uk
This is the ledger page for my car.
Simon J
J3437 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 22:08:40
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Simon, I found the term "Build Date" (or more correctly "Date Build") in the only file accessible by me: the Triple-M Database. This is an image of my own PA entry.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 22:13:51
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By the way, the entry "Body No (Carbodies) is an incorrect label. Carbodies did not build the open 2 seater PA. After about 1933, the contract was cancelled with Carbodies, thanks to Leonard Lord, and given to Morris Body Branch. All the P-type Airline Coupe bodies were, in fact, built by Carbodies under a contract with H. W. Allingham, not MG.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 22:36:14
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Thanks, Lew, but that’s the Register database, not factory documentation, and its terminology is not correct. The date of 12 June is the date of issue of the guarantee plate and 29 June is the date of delivery to Hebden Bros in Burnley. (It took quite a while to sell it, not being registered until March the following year.)
One could argue that, once the engine was installed in the chassis, the issuing of the guarantee plate turned the collection of components into a car - the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, etc., etc. - but that’s not really a 'build date'. You can’t build a car in a single day.
Here's the database page for my car showing a 'Build date' of 13 July 1933 - the date listed in the page above as the date of issue of the guarantee plate.
The 'Release date' is the date of delivery to Victor Ltd as shown on the previous page.
Simon J
J3437 |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 30/07/2023 22:41:49 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 22:46:46
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Yes, I know, but no one here in the US, including us officers of the North American Triple-M Register have access to factory documentation, so we do the best we can. Perhaps, as editor of the Yearbook (nice job, by the way) you could convince someone to do a treatise on factory production records, including the meaning of the dates, body numbers, etc. There is a lot of confusion about, especially regarding body numbers and what the represent.
Oh, and if the database terminology is incorrect, perhaps it should be corrected. It is, after all, the ultimate listing that all us registrars have to reference. As it is, it would appear that it is misleading.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
Edited by - LewPalmer on 30/07/2023 22:51:21 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2023 : 23:49:30
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Lew,
Anyone can get whatever factory documentation exists for their car from the MG Car Club. The examples I have posted are from the chassis file documentation for my car. Nothing secret - just pay the modest fee.
A treatise on factory documentation and terminology would be an excellent project for the Yearbook. 
Simon J
J3437 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3284 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 04:14:56
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I am aware of the ability to get copies of individual car chassis files, but build ledgers is not something I’ve ever been aware of or how to acquire copies. I’ve long asked that the documentation the club holds be digitized and made available. But a good start might be a publicly accessible listing of the documentation held by the club.
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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Tim Sharp
United Kingdom
307 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 09:14:26
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Simon
I'm with Lew, I have got a copy of my chassis file, infact I was at Abingdon for a meeting a couple of years ago, the archivist was not in that day and I was shown the racks of files and found and copied PB 0685 myself. (including finding a misfiled document which clarified some confusion with, I think PB0683, that had cropped up earlier.)
However nothing was said or proffered relating to Factory ledger listings, including but perchance not limited to, " Issue of Guarantee Plates for P Types".
What other Factory ledger listings are there? So that my next enquiry to Ienke can be specific?
Regards
Tim
Tim Sharp
PB0685 - Nuneaton |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 09:53:13
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Tim,
I have no idea what all is there. I haven’t set foot in Kimber House since the grand opening more than 30 years ago. Did you not get a copy of the equivalent ledger page for your car showing chassis number, engine number and date? I’m pretty sure it must exist as I doubt if only the J Type book survived.
Simon J
J3437 |
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John James
United Kingdom
974 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 15:14:14
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Tim Sharp asked "What other Factory ledger listings are there?"
To the best of my knowledge, there are none.
There are just the chassis files and the listings referred to in Simon's 5th posting on 30/07. These listings are known as the 'Build Sheets' and are kept in the 'Build Books'. When I say "known as" this is the terminology used by Pete, the Archivist.
There are certainly Build Books held for M,D,J,P,L, & N-types as I have had occasion to use extracts from these in connection with my work on behalf of the Octagon Car Club in applying for age related registration numbers for Triple-M's (The MGCC - Colin Grant- also offers this service).
I do know that quite a few of the chassis files for the N-types have gone missing and also their Build Sheets.
Also, those for most, if not all, of the racing models are missing.
There was a problem in the time before the present Archive was set up inasmuch as the security of the Archive was sadly lacking and files were borrowed, never to return.
I was pleased to be associated with the setting up of the Archive all those years ago. If nothing else, I gave Pete moral support.
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 16:03:45
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John,
Are the 'Build Books' the Issue of Guarantee Plate ledgers or something else again?
Simon J
J3437 |
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John James
United Kingdom
974 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 16:15:35
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Simon,
I'll phone Pete (he will probably be in Kimber House tomorrow).
JOHN J
J3656
PS I think they are the Issue of Guarantee Plate ledgers. |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6316 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2023 : 16:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by John James
I think they are the Issue of Guarantee Plate ledgers.
Thanks. That would be my understanding. The use of terms like build books and build dates is simply causing confusion. The only dates that seem to be recorded are issue of guarantee plate - from the ledgers - and delivery date - from the card sent from Sales to Service.
Simon J
J3437 |
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