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sam christie
United Kingdom
3102 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2009 : 00:03:39
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I understand that once upon a time what was known as a 'club crank'(or was it 'clubman crank'?) was available. I also understand that these were very affordable but much stronger than an original.I have never seen one.
How well did these work ? Could such a crank ever be produced again at an attractive price ?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 02/05/2009 10:57:15 |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 11:48:30
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Sam the answer is yes there was a "club crank " available. Cant remember who made them. They were also known as flat sided cranks because they were machined from a solid lump of steel and had flat sided webs. If you contact Jan Targosz via this web site he may be able to send you a picture because I sold him one of these a couple of years ago.
They were probably stronger than the original cranks but were still pretty basic and quite difficult to balance up. There was also some nice forged cranks on offer at one stage by Phoenix I think but they were not around for long. I have heard of a proposal to get some fuly counter balanced cranks made in China to a high standard at a reasonable cost but dont know how far this has developed.
I think there would certainly be a market for a good mid range crank at a reasonable price because the Phoenix whilst beautifully made is rather heavy and is really too good for an unsupercharged everyday J2 road going engine.
TH
Sam I just found a picture of a club crank so E mail me and I will send it to you by return. Maybe I will try and post it if I can !
T. |
Edited by - tholden on 02/05/2009 11:54:57 |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 16:26:23
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Having the dubious claim to fame of having broken 2 cranks in the same J engine I feel qualified to comment:-
One of the above was the original and the other a new 'club'-type crank.
Since then, I have owned a number of Triple M cars and in each case I have fitted a Phoenix crank which proved utterly reliable after many years of both competition and normal use.
Like a lot of things in life, you get what you pay for. |
Edited by - kimber on 02/05/2009 16:27:04 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3244 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 16:58:21
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I'm not yet ready for a new crank in PA1169, how does one find out about the details such as prices for cranks and rods from Phoenix? I see they don't seem to have a web site, only a phone number.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 18:49:11
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Lew,
One route for information is to contact Peter Green.
John R |
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Mike Linward
United Kingdom
93 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 11:36:34
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In the 1971 Triple-M Yearbook, there is an article titled æSolving The J2 Crankshaft ProblemÆ written be Ralph Bateman. It highlights several options to replacing the standard J2 crankshaft including making your own. This is exactly what Ralph did for his own J2, and as far as I know the car is still driving around with it fitted.
When the Register set up æCK SparesÆ to supply parts for Triple-M owners that were not then being provided commercially, crankshafts were one of the first items produced. The design was taken from RalphÆs pattern which itself may well have been from a pre-war design, probably a Riley 9 which also had a two bearing crankshaft. The crankshafts were known as æclub cranksÆ simply because they had come via the Triple-M Register. I donÆt know who made them but I purchased one through Nigel Musselwhite in the early 1970s when he was living in Vauxhall. The first batch of 6 was priced at ú75 each and by the time of the second batch, of which mine was one, the price had gone up to ú85. IÆm not sure how many were produced in total but it was probably in the region of 20 to 30. The crank was in my J2 from 1982, when the car was first on the road in my ownership, until 2008 when the engine was taken out for overhaul, not because the crank had failed but the whole engine was just worn out. Other than the central web to provide a measure of balance, the main difference was in the drillings for the oil-ways, which were drilled vertically and horizontally, other than between the rear main and crank pin 4. Although this required a greater number of drilling processes, and hence increased cost, it kept the oil holes well away from the edge of the big-end bearings and reduced the chances of a stress fracture. I donÆt think the crankshafts were made of any sophisticated material but were fine for people who wanted a cheap and reliable alternative to a standard J2 crank. They were not especially successful in a supercharged engine and I know of several that broke in race cars.
Regards,
Mike |
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talbot
United Kingdom
718 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 17:43:08
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Sorry can't provide a photo - the crank is now inside the engine. My original M Type crank was at least +40 and since there is no way the car will ever be raced Terry's Club Crank was an excellent solution. I did have it balanced by a very reputable firm - they were rebuilding a Merlin Engine from a Spitfire when I took the crank to them - and they said the balance was quite good as delivered. The rear flange lapped in very quickly and the front race was nice and tight. Overall I am very pleased.
Jan T |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3102 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2009 : 10:08:08
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Just before this topic slips into the archive I wonder,is there any likelyhood that an equivalent of a 'Club Crank' will ever be produced again ?
I brought up this topic in part through long term self interest but mainly because a friend rebuilding an M-type is finding one costly snag after another including discovering that he needs a good crankshaft.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 18/05/2009 10:53:47 |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3376 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2009 : 13:21:00
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Hi Sam
Might be worth putting a "wanted ad." on the Trader's forum
Nick |
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Peter Frost
United Kingdom
57 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2009 : 17:57:21
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A bit more on the Club Crank history I ordered one in December 1975 when it was expected to be the last order having already supplied over 50. It started as forged but changed to machined from solid and made to fully counterbalanced and looking the same as the Laystall crank illustrated in Mike Hawkes "75 years of the J2 M.G." page 102 but in EN 24T previous cranks being EN8M.
I took delivery ar Silverstone 1980 after problems with one supplier pulling out part way through and having to find a replacement.The price had risen over this time from ú118 to ú225 due to cost of materials etc.
I had some problems to solve the crankshaft Keyway being machined in wrong place and when it came to balancing it went off the scale and needed a wedge taking of each side of the center web before the machine would accept it!
It has only just been fitted to my engine so how it will perform remains to be seen however after all this time the price is a gift!
If you order a budget priced crank (or any other part)it is possible similar could happen so think carefully you will get what you pay for. |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2009 : 16:24:14
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I also had a club crank for my PA at about the same time. When it came to fitting into the engine it was found to be slightly too big to fit, requiring a certain amount of grinding and re-balancing... In service it has been fine, although I ran the bearings after running too hot (due to a faulty temp. gauge) and more recently bent a con-rod due to a hydraulic lock - neither of which were the fault of the crank, which has been fine in service. I cannot reasonably compare with others as my experience is limited, but the car seems to go quite well when it is all in one piece (which I am hoping will be soon!)
Graham |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3102 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2009 : 10:10:50
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Does anyone know who arranged the manufacture of the club crank and which engineering firm made them ?
Presumably once teething troubles had been identified the later club cranks like Jan's would have been largely trouble free ?
Sam |
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talbot
United Kingdom
718 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2009 : 11:28:24
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Sam,
May be worth speaking to Richard Hardy since he had some cranks made a year or so back. Also Peter Gregory had one on his stand at Stoneleigh a couple of years ago. He told me it had been made in Holland. He was using rods from a motorbike.
As I explained earlier I had no probs fitting mine into the engine. I used J2 rods without the split little ends and they were remetalled and machined by Garry Waiting who did an excellent job - I believe without any issues. The whole bottom end, including flywheel, rods and pistons was balanced and all that I had to show for my ú100 was a couple of shallow, drilled holes in the centre web. They did have to true the rear flange to the shaft but I think this was due to someone in the past using a hammer as puller. I note Peter had a problem with an incorrectly positioned key way. I made a new key myself and it fitted both shaft and flange perfectly. I cann't comment on its positioning since I remarked TDC on the flywheel. There was a problem with the front bevel gear being too far forward but this was almost certainly due to the fitment of a split inner race front bearing.
Cheers
Jan T |
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Blue M
United Kingdom
1474 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2009 : 07:39:50
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Sam,
Phil Bayne-Powell was one the top brains behind CK Spares. Perhaps a letter to the Bulletin would yield some solid facts. I'm sure Phil will know who made what, and when, and the different steels.
Regards
Ian |
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Bill Putnam
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2009 : 19:25:24
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In answer to Lou about how to order a Phoenix crank:
One option is to call John Newman at Phoenix cranks. The number to dial from the US is 011 44 1753 821303. Phoenix does not take credit cards, though, so if you go that route you'll likely need to go to your bank and get a bank note in Great British Pounds. I just ordered a set of replacement rod bolts from Phoenix last month.
Sports & Vintage Motors also carries Phoenix cranks, I believe, so you can try giving them a call as well. They do take credit cards, and also can communicate via e mail, so it's bit more convenient for people outside the UK to communicate with them.
Personally, I consider a high quality crank and rods, such as Phoenix make, money well spent. Save a block-buy a good crank and rods!
Bill Putnam
J3488
bputnam@cityofmadison.com |
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LewPalmer
USA
3244 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2009 : 19:46:02
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Thanks, Bill. I've already been in touch and consider their price very fair. (Compare to an XPAG crank from Moss.)
Cheers,
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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