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tconsidine
USA
5 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2010 : 19:18:56
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I was recommended to this forum by the good folks at the Classical Gas For Trials Enthusiasts blog. I'm a writer, a contributing editor for the U.S. magazine Road & Track, but now doing a non-R&T-related story for the Collier Museum in Florida. I'm writing a history of one of their cars, MG PA/PB JB 6157 (chassis number 1667), one of the three MGs (#57, I believe) run under Captain Eyston at Le Mans in 1935 by the all-woman team of drivers and later bought by Miles Collier, crashed on the road in New York, rebodied and race in the States by Collier, who also drove it at Le Mans with Lewis Welch in '1939 (note that Collier is sometimes confused with the Brit Michael Collier in records).
Specifically, what I'm looking for is provenance, any information about whether JB 6157 was driven competitively by anyone prior to Le Mans and if so, by whom, where and to what effect (and if possible, under what number). It appears the Eyston cars were tested at Brooklands before Le Mans (date?), but anywhere else?
After Le Mans, 6517 was repainted in the colors of Cream Cracker and The Three Musketeers and allegedly driven in trials. But I can find no records over here in 'the colonies' of these competitions, though in MG By McComb, it's said that the three competed in the 1935 Torquay Rally. Someone on the Classical Gas blog was kind enough to say, re Torquay, that there's a picture of Nash on Simms Hill in JB6158, meaning either Welch or Kindell, was in JB 6157. Again, more specific information would be great, who drove which car, what numbers, what results, etc. And what was the date of that rally?
Thanks very much, TC
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2010 : 19:41:39
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Hello Tim,
I have seen your interesting posting on the Classical Gas site as well as here.
I think the 3 Le Mans P-types were used as interim Musketeers after MG stopped using the re-bodied NEs and before the works-built L specials were completed at the end of August 1935. Initially the Musketeer specials were driven by the works drivers before being taken over by Macdermid, Bastock and Langley when the trials rules on works cars/drivers were changed.
The re-bodied NEs took part in the Welsh Motor Rally (16th to 20th July 1935), Welch 54, Nash 55 and Kindell 56. They were one of eight manufacturers' teams and the programme lists them as "The Three Musketeers".
To confirm what Graham A has said on the Classical Gas site, a week later the repainted (in Musketeer scheme, not Cream Cracker) ex-Le Mans cars took part in the Torquay Trial and Rally, 26th and 27th July, 1935. The drivers and car numbers were identical to those used in the Welsh Rally. The cars for the Torquay were listed as "MG Midget 847cc", implying PA rather than PB engines - however, Austen May in Wheelspin page 47 suggests by this time they were fitted with the PB engine. There were 19 car team entries in the Torquay, including Toulmin, Bastock and Macdermid listed as driving "MG Midget P 847cc". This information comes from the official programmes of the events. Can photocopy the programmes if of interest.
I think I can help you with a bit of info on Lewis Welch, and will contact you offline.
John Reid |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1487 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 11:10:35
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Hello Tim,
Further to John Reid's reply, the precise date of when the PAs became 939cc is fascinating. According to Malcolm Green's 2004 Yearbook article, the original PA engines were bored out to 60mm and the work was commissioned in July 1935, which suggests that this could have been done before the Welsh and Torquay Trials. However, this contradicts what was declared in the Trials Entry Lists. Unless there as a considerable delay between the work being commissioned and when it was actually carried out. Possibly the bigger engines were created in time for the MCC High Speed Trial on the 14th September 1935, although Malcolm says that for this event, the engines were stripped and "freed off", so that Bastock, Macdermid and Toulmin could work them hard. That suggests that they had already been bored out by that time.
Whatever actually happened, it is clear that by October 1935 the cars were surplus to requirements and were sold off. JB 6157 went to Miles Collier and I would guess that it was whisked off to the USA fairly quickly, apart from its short French holiday at Le Mans in 1939.
JB 6156 was sold by the Works to Douglas Briault and I have not yet come across any information as to what he did with the car. By 1938 it was owned by Reg Andrews who trialled it regularly and also entered it at Lewes Speed Trials in both 1938 and 1939. I have no further infrmation about this car at the present time.
JB 6158 was sold by the Works to H Witley Burt who was Sales Manager for the Cresta Motor Company in Worthing and he drove the car at many of the Brighton and Lewes Speed Trials meetings up to 1939, frequently winning his class. By June 1939 the car had moved on to Gerry Pentony, another well known M.G. name at the time in both trials and speed events. In the early post-war years (possibly 1946 or 1947) JB 6158 was pictured at Brighton Speed Trials in the hands of Basil Bowman who was a Hove car dealer specializing in interesting cars and by 1948 it had moved on to R W Christmas who entered it in the Stanmer Park Hill Climb, although apparently he was a DNS. For the next few years Christmas entered the car in trials (MCC Lands End Trial 1949) and speed events (Great Auclum Hill Climb 1953) and I believe that the car could still have been in his ownership in the early sixties when it was photographed parked at the side of the road in St. Albans. I think that Mr Christmas was part of a motor garage owning family in Watford. Eventually, the car moved away to the USA where I believe it is still owned by George Shelley.
Best wishes,
Colin B.
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 12:39:12
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Hi Tim,
To add a few more words to those from my erudite friends and colleagues. According to John Thornley, in "Maintaining the Breed", the cars were run with 939cc engines in the Le Mans race of 1935, when the cars earned their soubriquet "Dancing Daughters", due to the fact they were all driven by ladies, under the direction of George Eyston, who avowed, I understand, that he was too old to drive, and, ever galant, the ladies were young enough to be his children! This story came to me from Reg Jackson, who was in charge of the pits. The cars ran faultlessly for the 24 hours, needing only refuelling, and the replacement of one tail-light bulb.
I have one addition to Colin Butchers' summary of the histories, the third car was bought by Dermot Reynolds in the mid-sixties in the St Albans area, and it was he who sold it to an American. I was reunited with the car in, I think, 1991, during the First Triple-M Raid to New Endland, when it was in Dave Raymond's workshop, and was able to drive it a few miles. I dont think I actually met the owner, but he is on the Register.
Best wishes,
Mike
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tconsidine
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 19:27:09
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Thank you, gentlemen. The confusion about when the PAs became PBs is indeed interesting. All the entry and record information I've seen for the 1935 Le Mans effort give them as 847cc, including the ACO Century of Passion book. But the class they ran in was won by the Maillard-Brune/Charles Druck MG Magnette K3. So there would have been no reason not to have made them PBs, as they'd have remained in the same class. Perhaps for reliability reasons the thinking was the PA engine might be better balanced? I believe the idea was finishing rather than winning.
Then, re the MCC High Speed Trial Run, were the Le Mans cars there, or had the Musketeers already changed to the other cars? If they did go to the MCC event, is it known who drove 6157, under what number and the results? Because of the connection later between Miles Collier, Lewis Welch and 6157 ('59 Le Mans), I'm interested in any information about Welch and 6157 before the 10/35 sale to Collier. For instance, there's some confusion about which car Welch drove at Torquay. Was it he or Freddie Kindell who drove 6157? And the number and result? Information about that is of great interest to me, as would any information about Welch or the car's participation at the MCC event, if indeed that happened.
I confess, other than briefly owning an MG A (bought it from a girl friend who was moving from Los Angeles to New York, drove it once in a practice session at Riverside Raceway, then sold it for considerably more than paid, and as I'd promised, sent her the difference), I really know very little about MGs. So this has been my favorite kind of project, one that takes me into the unknown and from which I can learn. Thanks to you and the good people at Classical Gas. All the best, TC |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 20:27:11
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I am slightly puzzled why Mike says the Le Mans engines were 939cc. My copy of Maintaining the Breed in the Chapter 9 on P,Q and R says:
"The PA and PB were both sports not racing cars, but we have given some space to a description of them because the PA was used officially in the Le Mans 24 hour race of 1935."
I can't find any reference to PB/60mm.
More convincingly there is the letter from the Competition Dept on 10th July 1935 to John Thornley which appears in Roger Thomas' book. This letter details some changes required so that the ex-Le Mans Midgets can be used as interim trials cars following the sale of the NEs to the Evans family. The first change they ask for is to have the existing blocks bored to 60mm ready to fit 3 sets of pistons supplied by Wolseley Motors, which therefore supports the use of 57mm at Le Mans.
John R |
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ronald
Switzerland
35 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2010 : 18:19:25
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The Roger Thomas book also suggest that 6157 was driven by Bastock on an event at Brooklands in September 35.
(page 35 MG Trails Cars)
Ronald |
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tconsidine
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2010 : 20:55:45
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| That's very interesting, Ronald. Unfortunately, I have no access to that book here in 'The Colonies.' Would it be possible to get a bit more detail on what was said? Any information about the 9/35 Brooklands event, what it was, the results, the number assigned to 6157, etc., would be greatly appreciated. TC |
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ronald
Switzerland
35 Posts |
Posted - 13/01/2010 : 09:35:28
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Hi TC,
Please mail me your e-mail adress, than I will scan the page of the book and mail it to you.
Ronald |
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tconsidine
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 13/01/2010 : 17:49:39
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Done.
Thanks so much. TC |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2010 : 10:18:46
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| I see that the Three Musketeers are on telly this afternoon - try as I might I can see no mention of Lewis Welch, Nash or Kindell though...just a bunch of French blokes! |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2010 : 21:23:33
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| ...and with American accents! |
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tconsidine
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2010 : 20:43:10
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| A general question about The Three Musketeers circa 1935, was any one driver considered more successful than the others? TC |
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Brian Kelly
USA
526 Posts |
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Brian Kelly
USA
526 Posts |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1722 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 00:20:47
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Was it the Dancing Daughters or something like that who drove at Le Mans?
I think a friend of mine numbers one of them amongst his aunts.
Very happy to pursue if it is of interest.
Cheers
P |
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