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briang
United Kingdom
218 Posts |
 Posted - 25/02/2010 : 10:16:02
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I used the search facility to look for tips on fitting seat belts (to hold child safety seats) in my J2. I was disappointed to read the naive comments that if we drive carefully we won't have accidents. The clue lies in the fact that there are lots of idiot drivers on the roads.
My problem is - my kids will not accept their own children ie my grandchildren, in the J2 without belts or car safety seats. Negotiation on this point is not an option.
No restraints - no rides.
Times have changed, and I agree with their decision on this. But it does seem a shame for the little kids to miss out on MMM motoring in childhood.
I understand their feelings, having spent a few years of my working life fixing up the smashed faces of people involved in car accidents before the days of belts. I was also doing the same job (but an awful lot less of it!) when seat belts became compulsory. The difference was remarkable.
What do you do with YOUR children and grandchildren?
Brian |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 14:35:20
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An interesting problem - I have no grandchildren (yet?) but recall some trepidation when taking friends little'uns out.
My guess is that anything connected to the woodwork will not be strong enough, so it needs to be bolted to the chassis with some form of subframe/extension for the shoulder strap - lap straps alone are likely to be worse than nothing, unless you pad the dashboard too. Anything offered for sale would presumably need some sort of approval (Rospa or whatever?) so its probably down to self design/construction!
Cheers,
Graham |
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Rodney Collins
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 15:59:28
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Brian,
I seem to recall this topic discussed in full some time ago on this web site. I also seem to remember that members who a far more qualified to comment than I am pointing out that there is no way seat belts can be anchored in a T. MMM car with any success. If you think about it, the floors are made of wood. The only point would be one fixing to the chassie. I think you will find its a no goer. I also belive that even with seat belts ( thats if you could fix them) an accident with a modern car at any speed would be curtains for the occupants of a J2.
Rodney |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3372 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 18:12:27
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Brian
Use the search function for "Seat belts", remember to check "archived posts". Seat belts in a rigid chassis car are just not a good idea.
Nick
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. |
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sven
Sweden
431 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 19:21:23
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I agree on seatbelts in an oldish open car is not a good idea. But if there is a legal requirement and you want the grandchildren to experience MMM motoring or any vintage type motoring you have to do something. It will never be as good as a modern, but perhaps it will avoid headinjures from the dashpanel or the little one being flung out or .../put anything/.
Sven
2 L types and three grandchildren. |
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 21:03:17
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I was involved in the old thread as I sought to put seat belts in my PA. As a result of that thread, I have held off on the PA. (when I get grandchildren I will rethink it)
I do have belts in my 54 TF and I am so use to having belts when I drive any car, that I always feel somewhat naked without them. I know they are of little benefit on the TF, but they give me a sense of security, false that it may be. My wife usually falls asleep on any long drive, and being belted in her seat helps around curves etc. Even when I ride on my sit down lawn mower, I wish I had a lap belt.
I am afraid there is no easy solution.
Mike L |
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rodb
New Zealand
260 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 21:50:55
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In New Zealand we have to retro fit seatbelts in vehicles that fall into some registration requirements, that must meet a interior impact standard.
We have fitted seat belts to most of the MG T series sucessfully.
We also have infant and child restraint requirements.
Have a look at the PDF file(38 pages)that I have included a link to. This is the NZ standards for retro fitting seat belts in all types of vehicles.
http://www.lvvta.org.nz/stdSeatbeltAnchorages.pdf
Rod B, New Zealand. |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1564 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2010 : 22:30:15
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Rod, your NZ seatbelt standard provides good technical guidance for those wishing to retro-fit belts, but I cannot find any requirements relating to the required fitment of belts to vehicles built prior to the early 1990s - i.e. classic or pre-war vehicles.
Do I assume correctly that the MG T Types you refer to, used this standard for guidance?
Bruce. (PB0564) |
Edited by - Bruce Sutherland on 25/02/2010 22:45:38 |
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rodb
New Zealand
260 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 10:39:30
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Bruce
We use 2.6 Doubler plate requirements and 2.7 false floor requirements. Also 2.3.
On a T type for a 3 point seatbelt we use the doubler plates on top of the rear inner wheel arch, doubler plates on the driveshaft tunnel and drill through the angle iron body tub sub frame for the outer lower point.
mmm cars we do the same but use the false floor detail for the upper rear mounting (with the crush tube)
The Historic vehicle movement in NZ take the view that when we drive outside our gate we are motoring in a vehicle that is as far removed from modern safety standards as you can get, but with the addition of seat belts they improve your chances of suffering a serious injury.
Most of our customers who have had us fit seat belts to their MG's do so because we wear seat belts every day when driving.
It’s mandatory in NZ for all motor vehicles made after 1st January 1955 to have seatbelts fitted and they must be worn by all occupants if fitted. We have quite a number of TF1500's made in 1955 in NZ that must have seatbelts fitted.
The seatbelt anchorage standard I have linked is used for all retro fittings from 1955 and it applies to retro fits to vehicles older as well.
I do not want to enter the debate to fit or not to fit, but I offered our NZ Transport Authority’s accepted standards to assist MG owners to make some informed decisions on how to fit seatbelts.
RodB |
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sven
Sweden
431 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 10:52:57
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Rod
I for one thank you for letting us share a very good description and as many have said to fit or not to fit must be an indvidual choice. In Sweden all children must be anchored in special seats, seatbelts and so on. We don't have to fit belt to older vehicles, but I'd like the grandchildren to come along. Their parents were ok loose in the rear of our L tourer as I was in fathers TC.
Times change and we need to get the young ones interested in old cars.
Sven
Sweden waiting for the 50cm of snow to go away |
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rossk
United Kingdom
495 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 11:58:52
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Would Isofix fixings help as if you have this fixing on the seats you will not require seatbelts for this type of child seats?
I have the same roblem on one of our cars but we are going to make the seats to incorperate Isofix fixings.
Ross Keeling |
Edited by - rossk on 26/02/2010 11:59:37 |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 12:33:10
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Rod, many thanks for the clarifications for T Types and Triple-M applications.
The logic is clear - “The Historic vehicle movement in NZ take the view that when we drive outside our gate we are motoring in a vehicle that is as far removed from modern safety standards as you can get, but with the addition of seat belts they improve your chances of suffering a serious injury.” - and provides a well-reasoned distinction from those previous contributors on this subject who have equated retro-fitment of seat belts with meeting modern vehicle crash/impact standards.
Ross, I’d be interested to have more details of your Isofix installation, please.
Bruce. (PB0564) |
Edited by - Bruce Sutherland on 26/02/2010 12:33:44 |
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rossk
United Kingdom
495 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 19:15:20
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The Isofix fixing system is a anchoring system for attaching child seats to a vehicle. The fixings from memory was standard fitment on many marque around 2001. Basically it is two anchoring points fixed to the seat or body of the vehicle which allows the Isofix seat to be held in position without the use of a seat built. The anchor points are basically a metal bracket folded into a 'C' section and a bar around 5-mm thick welded to the piece of plate.
This link has a good photo of the fixing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isofix.
Ross Keeling |
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JohnSteedman
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 20:44:47
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I find this topic totally depressing. For many years I have asked in T-type forums whether there is any record of anyone being killed in a T-type on the public highway? I have yet to hear of any adult (let alone child) being harmed in these circumstances. The glory of T and MMM driving is that we know it's dangerous and we behave accordingly. (When are they going to ban rock climbing?)
Still, I'm sure the forces of Health and Safety will drive us all off the road in the end, if the carbon-footprint lobby don't get there first. In the meantime I shall continue to drive as fast as I can with 13 gallons of petrol strapped to my back, a steel rod pointing to my heart and an orange box surrouding me.
Safety Fast!
John |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 21:52:38
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Ross, my reference to ISOFIX (ISO 13216-1) says:
"2 rigid attachments............anchorages shall be 6mm +1mm diameter transverse horizontal round bars with a minimum effective length of 25mm. The transverse spacing of the bars shall be 280mm, centre to centre. They shall be supported to extend from the adjacent vehicle or seat structure so they are readily accessible. Note that the general dimensions are compatible with both the ISOFIX (European) and the LATCH (USA) standards."
Not so easy to fit with bucket seats.
PS. There may be a later issue of this ISO standard.
Bruce. (PB0564) |
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2010 : 23:13:31
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John, Frank Churchill co-founder of the New England MGT Register (and one of the nicest persons I have ever met) was killed in his MG TD. I believe he was thrown from the car when some idiot drove into him. He was on the way to pick up friends at the nearby train station.
Mike L |
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