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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
 Posted - 18/10/2010 : 22:53:29
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I have been trying to learn more about ENV gearboxes and I notice that ENV gearboxes seem to enjoy a good reputation and were fitted to several makes of car including MG in the 1930's.
Was there a set 'catalogue' of 'off the peg' gearboxes produced by ENV from which manufactures (such as MG,Triumph and Crossley) selected or did ENV produce lots of different and specialised gearboxes?
Would much the same types of ENV gearbox have appeared on other makes as well as MG?
Sam |
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2010 : 13:04:39
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Hi Sam,
I presume you mean the manual box used in the F and some of the Midget racers.
This was indeed more or less a stock item, and I believe that one from an AC Magna fits the MG bell-housing, but here lies a problem: they are rarer than F-types!
MG used the ENV unit after getting Moss and ENV to quote. Moss gears had to design from scratch and their unit ONLY appeared as an add-on accessory: V.W.Derrington bought the selling rights, and was still getting rid of old stock in the 1950's!
ENV won the contract, and their unit was used originally in the C-type racing Midget. It was later used in F and J4 models, and the K3 prototype, I think using the original sanction. It was ruled redundant when Wolseley came up with their four-speed unit in 1932, which was used from the J2 onwards.
I covered the story in the "Works MG" which we hope is coming back into print next year.
OK?
Just for the record, the ENV unit is very strong: I did some stress calculations back in the sixties, and concluded it should be able to transmit up to 250 horse power with no undue problem, compared with 150 for the Wolseley box.
The preselector used in the K3 and Q and R-types (also of ENV manufacture, their 75model) was only really good up to 150 horses, which begs the unanswered question of why use that one?
All the best,
Mike |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2010 : 13:18:41
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Sam
ENV were one of a number of gearbox manufacturers used by MG.
They were a specialist contractor and although their products were very good they were more expensive than the Wolsley and Morris units more commonly used.
ENV built the MG pre-selector boxes (under license from "Self Changing Gears") fitted to 1 J4 - all of the K3's and NA 037 for competition.
These boxes had the "high ratio".
The pre-selector boxes were also fitted to the Q and R types - these being the deep sump "close ratio" for racing - some K3's were retro fitted with the later option.
The "standard ratio" MG boxes fitted to K types KN's and customer cars on request had a lower first gear and a larger gap between 2nd and 3rd gears.
The same "standard ratio" box was also fitted with some detail differences to Riley's, Rapiers (both Lagonda and Rapier cars), Squire and many others.
The "high ratio" and "close ratio" were similarly available to those who paid for it and it was an expensive option.
The ENV box fitted to the F, C and J4 was a "crash box"
The gears are all straight cut and the ratios are pretty good.
The gearchange is probably the sweetest of the non synchro boxes I have ever driven - but the gearbox was an expensive item in comparison to the Wolsley item.
The C type and J4 had a close ratio version of the box which is even better - probably the best set of ratios and sweetest gearbox ever fitted to a MMM car.
These racing boxes are mounted off the chassis frame on a cross tube (rather than the standard box which hangs of the rear of the engine bellhousing) and the additional cross member serves to additionaly stiffen the chassis.
ENV supplied these boxes to anyone who would pay for it - AC in particular used them.
But they are rare items - hens teeth are more common!
However for MG the writing was firmly struck in ink that they should purchase parts from the Morris parts bin - hence the road cars swapped to the Wolseley box for the J2 onwards.
Although Wolseley did eventually fit a better set of ratios for the N - PB the standard box is weaker - the ratios inferior to the ENV and the gearchange ponderous in comparison.
That said the MG was by all accounts a very good sporting car and excellent value for money - even the standard car was quick by comparison to a Morris 8 or Austin 7!
I do not like to see cars fitted with the "wrong" gearbox but if I had a choice I would pick the close ratio cross tube ENV crash box every time.
However that said with my lazy head on the pre-selector is much easier to use and requires less precision and driver skill to effect quick changes up and down the box.
If you have an F type - you probably have the nicest touring car of the early 1930's - dont spoil it - enjoy it.
If you have a C type or J4 - well you really are lucky!
If you have a standard MMM car of any type - you are all very lucky too!
God this is a long diatribe - hope its not diatripe!!
I hope and think the facts are pretty accurate - I am sure others more learned than me will correct where necessary.
Regards David |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2010 : 22:40:18
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Nobody has mentioned that the crosstube ENV manual gearbox was also fitted to the 1.5 litre Invicta. These were generally fitted with the straight cut gears as per the F/C and J4 ENV gearboxes as opposed to the ENV manual crosstube box fitted to the AC where the gears were generally helical. I understand that one of the racing Lagonda Rapiers had an ENV manual gearbox fitted by the factory.
Rich H
Vintage MG Parts |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2010 : 22:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Hardy
Nobody has mentioned that the crosstube ENV manual gearbox was also fitted to the 1.5 litre Invicta. These were generally fitted with the straight cut gears as per the F/C and J4 ENV gearboxes although the gears in the ENV manual crosstube box fitted to the AC were generally helical producing a quieter box. I understand that one of the racing Lagonda Rapiers had an ENV manual gearbox fitted by the factory also as well as the C type bodied prototype K3.
Rich H
Vintage MG Parts
Vintage MG Parts |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2010 : 23:37:49
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| Mike/David, Your history/description of ENV gearboxes is most interesting and enlightening. They are superb and very strong, must have been expensive (and fancy fitting them to the huge number of tourers that they made!). My late F-type (now in F2 form, exported to Oz as a chassis and third in the 1933 AGP) has one but since it appeared to be on good condition (car is relatively low mileage) I did not dismantle it. One question though, although it is basically a "crash" type, is not one of the "speeds" a sliding change? I find that upward changes can be made practically as fast as the lever can be operated, downward (into second especially) are rather awkward. Is second gear sliding? |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2010 : 06:54:10
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| Probably OK, price is probably what you pay these days for items like that! Signed on to say that I omitted to say that I double-declutch furiously but still don't seem to be able to change down to second. I am all too familiar with the need to double-declutch, all of my cars are old and my first car was a PA which was my everyday driver for about three years (many years ago). |
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2010 : 09:31:47
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Hi to Sam, and all others!
The bell housings made for Peter Gregory were specifically for the preselector gearbox.
The bell housing of the MG manual box was integral with the gearbox casing, therin providing some of its strength. I think the racing boxes had closer ratios than the those of the F-type, and that the centre lines of the shafts are therefore slightly different.
The gearchanging with these boxes is certainly excellent, as quick as you can move the lever, if youve got the engine speed dead right. I had an F Salonette in the sixties, and thoroughly enjoyed driving the car: the medel is more than slightly maligned by those who have never driven a good example.
The unit in Sam's picture, from a Triumph, is quite different from the MG unit. I think that the one fitted to the Fletcher Jones Rapier came originally from an AC, but you must ask David himself about that. I will check with my son-in-law, Tim Metcalfe, but I think all Rapiers were fitted with the ENV 75 preselector gearbox.
Regards to all,
Mike
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2010 : 10:29:49
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| Mike, As regards ENV gear changing, I suspected that engine revs is the answer, as you say. Not driving these cars every day causes us to lose touch! Trust that you are fit and well, same happened to me over 11 years ago and I am fit and well (for an old bloke anyway!). |
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BobRichards RIP
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2010 : 13:32:07
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| I too had an ENV crash box as my every-day companion for a few years in the early sixties. I used to thoroughly enjoy it. It was a wonderful gearchange and I suppose some of the enjoyment derived from the fact that you pushed the lever forward into top, as in a Bugatti (I'm told!). Mine was in a PB engined J2 (ex Frank Stark. A superb car which alas has long since disappeared. |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1722 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2010 : 14:25:06
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A cross tube box was fitted to my father's K1, JB854 the works demonstrator, as far as I recall (I was 7!) There was also one in my F3, RX9981 and also a works demonstrator, though it was mounted in the usual F Type way. This one went to Barry Foster back in the last century in return for him rebuilding the car for me. It is probably propelling some C Type now...
Both these cars were built in mid '32, presumably there was a surplus of these boxes at that time...
Cheers
P |
Edited by - PeterL on 20/10/2010 14:27:12 |
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Foz
United Kingdom
769 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2010 : 23:24:14
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Hi Peter,
most of that ENV box is still in use.........the clutch cover plate exploded at Montlhery in the last century and destroyed the case....mechanical bits are now in a new cross tube case. Over the years I have found three cross tube boxes in F types ...cross tube removed and the bosses blanked off with steel plugs.......all with C type spec so assume they came out of C types fitted with close ratio boxes and then reused by the factory in an F type.....replacement or "new" ...dont know! Close ratio box C/J4 has a very tall Ist gear...not ideal for road use which is why I made 3.3 1st gears.
Foz |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2159 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2010 : 00:15:09
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The Fletcher Jones Lagonda Rapier was not fitted with an ENV manual gearbox from new, but the Lagonda factory did fit one to another car they built from new. I suspect the car is no longer in circulation.
Rich
Vintage MG Parts |
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