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Nick Feakes
USA
3413 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2012 : 17:00:02
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Speaking for myself, I try and treat every member of this forum equally, be they traders or not. I will not allow any one member to abuse another regardless of any perceived injustice - I am not qualified or willing to be drawn into any form of dispute between members. I also believe many other members do not wish to have these disputes aired publicly on these forums. If you have a dispute with another member then please settle it privately.
That said, the Committee is debating what the position of the Register should be towards suppliers who give poor service.
I do try and read every post every day, but given that I do have a life (and a PA awaiting completion) and that I do miss things, if you have an issue with what any member has written, please drop me an email, I would appreciate either a link to the post or the forum and topic to guide me directly to it - saves me having to search for it!
Nick
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spitfire
United Kingdom
371 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2012 : 22:06:29
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Hi Wyn. I can verify that your posting didn't start this.
Like you, I don't want to involve others in a concern relating to what I have bought in good faith. I am simply hog tied to a collection of other owners who have (as Bob puts it) up to fifty years experience of these cars.
I have met people who know all the derivatives of mechanical parts with other marques tied into the MG development. Highly professional people who are in the priveleged position to simply ignore names that roost in the pre war MG tree.
I was thinking whilst arsing around setting up the SUs on the J2 (complaint from the neighbour, "Could I ask if you could turn it another way, as the baby sleeps in the bedroom above where all the fumes are going")
...I notice you have grabbed the nettle and Silverstone's MMM champion is giving some (premium phone rate!) advice on your distributor.
Why not make a photo document of the parts and fitting concepts?
Make a positive from a negative situation!
If it is a legal issue, no need to post it for now.. but I notice that Dick is aware of problems/fettling issues that go with this Bosch part.
It would be good as a pictorial illustration of what tolerances are needed.
Note down the measurements that have a relevance, maybe a diagram could explain what needs to be altered. |
Edited by - spitfire on 07/07/2012 22:13:54 |
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Chris Bucknell
Australia
107 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 02:57:55
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Hi All,
While I feel like responding to this topic is going to be like "putting my head above the parapet" I think it is a useful discussion.
I wasn't too sure where to post my comment so Nick if it doesn't belong here just move it to where it needs to be.
Over the years my father and I have had both suppliers who have met our expectations and those that have fell well short. However it is our choice to participate in this hobby because, it is our hobby, we have been lucky enough to have the opportunity to do so and I certainly value the time I spent with my father because of this shared interest, as well as the many other generous and talented people I have met over the years. Also nothing quite beats doing 100mph in an open top car or racer from our era!
I feel that there are at least two sides to this story. From our side as buyers we want the perfect piece of equipment to keep our pride and joy going for the next 100 years. From the supplier's side they are trying to supply us something to meet our expectations at the same time as trying to provide a roof and food for their family. I know I am not in England and hence don't pretend to know what is going on over there but I don't know of too many (if any)that have reached the Bill Gates status as a result of supplying MMM parts and service.
Having said this, personally I have felt very uncomfortable over the years with considering profiting from MMM MG's as I felt this was opportunistic and that judgment could be skewed by the almighty dollar. This is a personaly choice I struggle with daily as I try to keep the cars going and enhance what they are capable of doing. But at the same time I think it is important to remember that many of the people who have profitted from MMM MG's, we have to thank today for having our cars on the road. In that regards they were/are insightful. They collected parts, have gone to the trouble to try and manufacture parts, yes for money, yes to help their own car stay on the road but also to keep our own cars on the road.
Part of the issue is that we are as a group probably over-representative of the perfectionists on the planet. Imagine supplying to us!
While I accept that abuse of another member is clearly against the spirit of the register; it is a fundamental tenant of the societies that we live in that both sides of the argument can be heard on equal terms.
So I see it like this:
1. Either the "suppliers" are included in the register (including this forum) and given they are allowed a forum to sell their products I feel it is encumbant on the register to also allow those people who have experiences with the suppliers (either positive or negative) to also be allowed a forum to discuss their experiences. There are many of these types of forums already on the internet for services and products. Maybe Nick a Product Review forum? At least as a separate forum those who want to read can and those who don't won't. Clearly though people should stick to the facts and not take it personally. I think we are smart enough to discern between the one off "bad day" for suppliers/buyers (TAM-temporary arsehole moment) AND systematic unconscionable conduct(PAP-permanent arsehole person).
OR
2. We exclude the suppliers AND the comments about any experiences with the suppliers.
I personally think the first option would be of more value to the members of the register rather than the second. Many of our suppliers are valued contributors to the forum and their loss would be felt. Hey it may even assist improvement in the quality of new parts supplied.
Note: under this arrangement it would be important that only suppliers who are members of the forum are discussed in the forum or at least someone takes on the responsibility to contact a non-member supplier to make them aware of a comment. Again another good reason to have a dedicated part of the forum to discuss these matters.
I guess in either case I propose a level playing field ie that all parties be given the same forum to either promote themselves, their products, their rave reviews or their warnings. We could even provide a short overview on how to lodge a "suggestion for improvement".
Finally I think it is unreasonable to ask Nick to be the policeman in this matter. I think Nick should only respond to matters brought to his attention by a member and/or member of the public.
Chris
caveat emptor |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 08:37:42
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I would not like to see a free-for-all where anyone can say at any time what they think about suppliers/manufacturers/restorers.
In any form of business, it is almost inevitable that some customer dis-satisfaction will occur, particularly as the volume of work increases. I'm willing to bet that every single Triple-M related business has experienced some customer dis-satisfaction over the years. It is how you (the 'provider') handle that situation when it arises that can make all the difference. A prompt 'hands-up, terribly sorry, let me put that right for you' response can actually be very beneficial in PR terms.
You can spend years doing fine work and then drop the ball once. Unfortunately, one bad job can badly damage a reputation which might have taken years to build and doesn't necessarily mean that the provider in question can no longer be relied upon.
I think that the Register should take a completely 'neutral' position when any grievances occur. |
Edited by - kimber on 08/07/2012 08:40:49 |
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spitfire
United Kingdom
371 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 09:44:51
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Well done Chris. A nicely structured response.
It certainly outlines some of the core issues at play.
I never quibble on a price if that supplier has to provide a costing to survive, yet alone profit. We all respect that "Every Business has to start somewhere."
Most MMM businesses started as a toe in the water venture.
So why do some suppliers try to lobby to close down a NEW hobbyist trying to BECOME another MMM Supplier?
I can understand the "Grandfathers Rights" side of those involved with MMM cars.
The time put into their ventures.
I also understand that the "Greatgrandfathers Rights" lay with the cars.
This is why I've always flagged up the concept of a digital Manual/reference guide
created from our most obvious asset.. The immortal MMMs!
Club cars, illustrating set ups recognised as being correct.. This in turn can provide links to suppliers.
Everyones' interests would turn the cogs.
I find it disturbing that generations worth of knowledge has simply disappeared into the ether.
Certain individuals created great databases (that are common domain, copyright wise.)
We ought to build something on what they started.
SPECIALIST.
What exactly are we meant to read into this term?
The specialists I use. Undertake the job. Any specific specialist tooling required they then contact another specialist that they are familiar with.
Isn't that why you seek them out and they accept a pretty straight forward remit..
Rebuild my steering box, for instance.
The whole idea of a specialist is that they understand all the idiosyncracies of what they deal with. I have given old engines to people who know the common inbred faults before splitting the cases. I also know dealers who stated a price to rebuild an engine and got their fingers burnt through an oversight and had to ship the whole thing to one of three places in the UK to carry specialist tooling to pull it apart and re assemble it.
They were a dealership of Harley Davidson and had to stick with the price they quoted.
Things DO go wrong.
It is everyones' fear that time starts slipping away.
The novice restorer might see months slip into years, as they gather the knowledge of what they have to do, find.
Isn't that why we dig deep and go to a Specialist?
To save time and to pay someone for their experience..?
To TRUST that someone can provide something acceptable?
We all know what that means.
The way the MGOC system was devised was along these lines.
The club provided a shop window for the talents and products the businessperson would draw benefit from.
Every year a Recommended Suppliers questionaire goes out.
All club members can mark any services they have had. They can also nominate new suppliers.
Good service gets good marks.
Indifferent services gets indifferent marks.
So, if a member buys one item or forty in a year, they still weigh up a year's trade with that particular trader.
If everyone is delighted TOP MARKS
(and that's what everyone likes to see!)
No BAD marks exactly.
Just a fair summary from a years labour/spending.
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Edited by - spitfire on 08/07/2012 17:54:53 |
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Orstin
United Kingdom
639 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2012 : 11:21:39
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My concern about providing such a forum is three-fold. Firstly, I think that people are much more ready to post negative comments about a product/service - ie where something didn't meet expectations. When something does meet expectations, people are less bothered. Secondly, such a forum has the potential to be the first port of call for a complaint. Trip Advisor (apologies for those who aren't familiar) is a perfect example - someone stays in a hotel, has a bad experience and grumbles in public - the Hotel then responds saying, well you didn't say anything whilst you were here, we could have sorted it out then and there. Finally, there are always two sides to every story. Assuming the purchaser of the item/service has been precise in their understanding of the parts required or requesting the right work to be done is not necessarily always the starting point of any discussion.
As others have said, we should be ready to acknowledge the part played in our movement by *all* suppliers over the years and be thankful to them. Without them, we'd all be a bit stuck, wouldn't we..
So many dynamos |
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