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Hamish McNinch
United Kingdom
110 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2014 : 01:37:40
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| Those with a penchant for unusual MGs may wish to note that one of the 2 M-Types which were entered for Le Mans in 1930 has been entered for the Bonhams auction at the Goodwood Festival of Speed at the end of this month. The catalogue has just been put online and there are plenty of pictures. I was lucky enough to re-commission this car for its owner in the early 90s after it had been laid up for 30+ years. I competed with it on a number of occasions, and frightened myself on each of them! |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2014 : 10:45:38
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Also an ND/NE and HS 8860 supercharged PB rebuilt at cost of £77600 !
TH |
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Dolts
United Kingdom
1129 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2014 : 11:38:46
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The ND / NE was at Prescott last year with Graham Galliers. Very nice car indeed.
Must have been pretty terrifying taking an M Type around Le Mans at night....Chris C you should know after your Le Mans Classic Experience!
Mark Dolton
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Edited by - Dolts on 11/06/2014 11:43:32 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6144 Posts |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3106 Posts |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3240 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2014 : 20:24:48
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And a welcome back Hamish from me.
Three very nice MGs but are the estimates a bit high? The catalogue certainly contains some very desirable and expensive cars. I like to Healey 100S but it is out of my price range.
I remember seeing the PB when Peter Gregory had just finished rebuilding it. It certainly looked very sporty and went very well when I saw it being raced!
George
L2023 |
Edited by - George Eagle on 11/06/2014 20:26:34 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 09:49:41
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I have long wondered why a special body was produced for Le Mans and what advantages it offered for that race. I hope this is not taking too great a liberty with this thread ( I touched on this some years ago) but am I alone in seeing a strong resemblance between the shape of the Le Mans Midget body and the prototype/pre production M-type bodies?
The modified image above was achieved with Tippex, felt tip pen and lead pencil. The only fundamental body difference I see (other than parts being cut away) is the shape of the highest part of the door. Even where the line of the edge of the scuttle on the prototype looks softer the shape of the lower edge of the screen reveals the true shape.
If the Le Mans bodies were recycled prototype bodies or not is now probably unknowable but one might wonder why a different body would have been specially produced for Le Mans unless it offered some advantages. Was it lighter, stronger, better streamlined than, for example, a '12/12' M-type body ?
Is it true that only two Le Mans bodied M-types were produced of which only one survives?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 12/06/2014 09:56:17 |
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Hamish McNinch
United Kingdom
110 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 11:04:13
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Sam,
It isn't really a 'special' body. It's one that has been adapted from a standard body, at the request of the entrants, in order to meet the requirements and regulations of the Le Mans race. And it was based on the experience with the successful 12/12 cars. I think the raised scuttle is simply to provide a flat mating face for the flyscreen. The cutaway doors are similar to the 12/12 cars and allow for flaying elbows in the chase (I know all about that!!)
There is a large fuel tank in the rear and an oil tank (allowing the engine to be topped up on the go by the riding mechanic) mounted in the scuttle. It's one off an 18/80!
The driver has a bucket seat (again at the request of Samuelson and Murton-Neale) but the riding mechanic sits on the remains of the standard bench seat - it was simply cut in half and then stitched up. You may be able to see that the wheels have a different spoking pattern (more spokes and both centre and outside laced) and the wings are different too. I think they were probably adapted from something else.
There are lots of other details changes, such as the exhaust system (have a look at the picture in the catalogue - it looks a real bodge to begin with but the more you examine it, the more you realise that it is a beautifully made thing which both does its job and doesn't compromise maintenance) instruments, the side mounting of the spare wheel (necessitated by the large fuel tank), external horn and spotlight etc etc. I'll leave it to others to decide what the funny lump on the top of the radiator cap is...
MG clearly went to a lot of effort to give these 2 cars a fighting chance.
Yes, just 2 cars were produced. The description in the catalogue explains how both cars eventually came into the hands of Lewin Spittle and Dr Milton. They built up one car on the better chassis, which is the one for sale. I can vouch for it being on the Samuelson chassis. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 12:35:17
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Thanks Hamish.
I agree this is a uniquely important and interesting car. It would be on my shopping list if I had significantly more funding (any funding would help).
My speculation about the origin of the Le Mans bodies and a possible similarity with the prototypes is not an implied criticism. If the body is a modified prototype body for me it adds even more to its historic significance. It could be the only tangible link with the designer's original concept.
I understand the need to comply with Le Mans regulations and the practicalities but if the Le Mans body was a modified production body what advantage was gained by flaring the scuttle? I would love to see under the scuttle of the Samuelson car to see how it was constructed. The curve looks like it would have required some effort.
All the other modifications to the body seem to have an obvious practical basis. Was the scuttle design due to regulations? Does the flared scuttle offer significantly more space for an oil tank? Does it offer better shelter for prolonged driving at speed? ….Lightness? Streamlining?…..Just asking out of interest….Cui bono?
Sam |
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Hamish McNinch
United Kingdom
110 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 14:58:25
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Sam,
I dont think such things were much effort for a car factory which built things by hand. After all, they managed to build 13 C-Types in just a few weeks a year later! But the picture you show has a structure to reflect the final outside shape. As far as I understand it, this shape was actually achieved by fitting an additional board at the cockpit front, to produce a horizontal and then stretching the covering over it. The original wooden scuttle frame is underneath.
As I said earlier, I think it was just a way of giving the crew a bit better weather protection. Maybe the drivers in the 12/12 found it a bit breezy. They would have taken account of such experience.
Hamish |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6144 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 15:27:24
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There's an interesting article by Bill Munro in the 2002 Year Book which has a photograph of the prototype M type with body by Carbodies built for the 1928 Motor Show at Olympia. It shows a flared scuttle line very similar to the Le Mans cars which was apparently in the original design brief mock-up provided by M.G. It never made it into production, of course but may have provided the inspiration for the Le Mans body.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 16:39:09
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Lightweight double-curvature construction in variations of wood, metal tubing and canvas was then widely-used in the contemporary British aircraft industry and would have been familiar to any boat, sidecar or car maker.
Bob. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3106 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2014 : 19:23:35
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I think Simon is essentially echoing my original observation.
I missed your line about weather protection Hamish - "the raised scuttle is simply to provide a flat mating face for the flyscreen". Sounds a little Irish. Would it not have been easier to make a flyscreen to fit the body?
Still if "this shape was actually achieved by fitting an additional board at the cockpit front, to produce a horizontal and then stretching the covering over it.The original wooden scuttle frame is underneath" - it is clearly just a 'bog standard' production body with a scuttle style resembling the prototypes.
Since a fair number of Le Mans replicas/copies now exist, does the scuttle flare deflect the air flow allowing better protection and does it make it make it easier for the driver to look through the screen rather than over it ?
Is the Le mans M-type Midget more comfortable to drive at speed than a 12/12 M-type Midget?
Lastly the 'bog standard body modified' idea is supported by the door line. The Le Mans door is the same as the production door where it meets the scuttle but the prototype is clearly different.
Hamish, I am convinced. I think.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 12/06/2014 19:52:31 |
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Hamish McNinch
United Kingdom
110 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2014 : 13:29:36
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Sam,
You may think my observation looked 'a little Irish' - but I couldn't possibly comment!!
All interesting speculation on my part - and your observations are interesting. I haven't seen the photo of one of the cars wearing race number 18B before. Where is the picture from? Do you know which car it is and what event, place, date etc?
Hamish |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3106 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2014 : 16:05:00
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Hamish I must credit Ron New with finding the Le Mans 18B action picture. I do not know what the context was but I think it is a great action shot.
I think this is a prime candidate for "Seeking Information about a picture".
Sam |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2014 : 16:16:17
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I would think one of the 750 mc relay races at Brooklands...
Regards,
Graham
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