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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6304 Posts |
 Posted - 18/09/2024 : 20:04:29
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As we all know, here in the UK the person named on the V5C form which is issued by DVLA and which in effect identifies the vehicle, is the registered keeper and, as it says on the form, the V5C is not proof of ownership. So what is proof of ownership? Many of us bought our cars decades ago and even if we still had a receipt, how does it prove that the seller was the legal owner.
So how do we prove ownership?
Simon J
J3437 |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 18/09/2024 20:05:33 |
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2024 : 20:51:19
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Not something I'd really thought about Simon. I may have a receipt somewhere, complete with a postage and revenue stamp! As to the vendor, he died a year or two ago.
In practical terms I guess for the longer term owner/keeper, having bought mine 58 years ago, if the "Rightful owner" was searching for his lost pride and joy, I imagine I would have had a heavy knock on the front door by now?
Dave |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6304 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2024 : 22:05:32
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I’m not thinking about someone turning up at the door and claiming 'ownership', Dave, but rather, if I wanted to transfer ownership of the car while remaining its registered keeper and thus responsible for taxing it, etc., how could I do it?
Simon J
J3437 |
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2024 : 22:12:20
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Not being an expert, I would imagine to transfer ownership legally you would be advised to go through a solicitor?
Chris |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6304 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2024 : 22:29:20
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I suspect you are right, Chris, but I was curious if others had addressed this.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Ian Grace
USA
674 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2024 : 14:02:25
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You can transfer your J2 to me at any time, Simon!  |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6304 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2024 : 15:36:15
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How thoughtful of you, Ian. Thank you.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
952 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2024 : 18:17:45
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Perhaps this is resolved by understanding who is considered liable in a probate.
Does it accrue to the registered keeper or is that not a given?
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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John James
United Kingdom
972 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2024 : 18:24:25
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Simples! I still have the receipt for my J2 dated 25/11/65.
It was when I paid the balance of £25, following an earlier deposit of £10.
I'd just left school. |
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Malcolm Eades
United Kingdom
383 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2024 : 09:26:14
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A friend of mine has "given" his MGA and his E Type to his children to remove them from his estate and has evidenced the transfers with a simple letter. However, he still the keeper, still has them in his garage and still drives them (in the interests of keeping them in good order for their owners, of course!). I have suggested that a court would quickly see through his scheme and set it aside as a blatant tax evasion. His response is "Who's going to find out?", which, in this era of poor enforcement of the law, probably makes it a worthwhile risk.
Malcolm
M Type
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DK6780
United Kingdom
345 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2024 : 09:36:21
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Your friend is taking a big risk given that he has remained the keeper. But of course it's not his problem as he will not be the one signing the forms potentially fraudulently valuing his estate for IHT purposes.
The issue of reserved benefits is well established with other forms of property such as houses where a similar scheme would require rent to be paid to remain in the property. But storing something for someone else is allowed, although how a cost of usage could be assigned is open to question. |
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Colin McLachlan
United Kingdom
996 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2024 : 10:07:50
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quote:
how a cost of usage could be assigned is open to question.
Pay the owner a documented rental each time the car is used? Charge the owner garage rental when it is stored - could balance out?
Colin
Crail, Fife.
PA 0613
MG3242
Register No. 2591 |
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DK6780
United Kingdom
345 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2024 : 11:09:16
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| Sadly both payments (rental of the car and garage rental) would be subject to income tax at both parties marginal rates. If the car is regarded as "art" rather than a means of transport the rental is generally considered to be 1% of its value per annum, but art is subject to CGT unlike vehicles so you may not want to go down that route. |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6304 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2024 : 23:28:18
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Thank you all for your observations. My own subsequent research would suggest that the transfer of ownership might need to be more than a letter - perhaps a deed? - but that once transferred, the former owner could pay the new owner 1% of the value per annum to have the use of the vehicle (taxable, of course, as far as the new owner is concerned) and would agree to pay the insurance and maintain the car. The former owner would thus, presumably, remain the registered keeper on the V5C but the vehicle would be removed from his estate. I believe that failing to pay the 1% for the use and enjoyment of the car would lead it to be considered a Gift With Reservation, i.e. it would still be part of the former owner's estate. But even a deed of gift would have to assume who owned the car in order to gift it to someone else. Which brings us back to where we started - how do we prove ownership of a car we’ve had for fifty years if the V5C is of no use?
Simon J
J3437 |
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LewPalmer
USA
3283 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2024 : 01:09:37
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I'm confused over all of this discussion. In 1985, I transferred my J2 to the legal ownership in the US (mainly so I could display US number plates on the car in Denmark where I was transferred (it failed the Danish MOT). At that time I was required to trade my UK title in for a US title and number plates.
So does the UK still issue titles for automobiles? In the US, the title to an automobile is absolute legal proof of ownership. Is there no longer such an instrument in the UK?
Lew Palmer
PA1169, NA0651 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6304 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2024 : 07:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by LewPalmer
So does the UK still issue titles for automobiles?
Did it ever, Lew? Tell us more.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Topic |
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Vehicle ownership
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