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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
 Posted - 26/12/2016 : 12:31:06
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Where were MG Triple-M engines made?
Sam |
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2010 Posts |
Posted - 26/12/2016 : 18:19:49
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Fascinating subject Sam.
Without any in depth knowledge I always understood they were manufactured at the Wolseley Works.
Chris |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 26/12/2016 : 19:17:33
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Wolseley would make sense. I cannot find the answer in any of the books. Perhaps it really was a secret.
It is clear William Morris did not move the Wolseley gearbox production facility so I wonder if he would have had any reason to move the Wolseley OHC engine production facilities and an experienced workforce and development staff. Wolseley staff had of course been mass producing OHC vertical drive engines since the Great War.
Sam |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 27/12/2016 : 13:01:18
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I note Wilson McComb states (in the conext of the M-type) "The Midget engines were sent direct to Edmund Road from Wolseley Motors."
McComb also says the MG F-type six cylinder 1271 cc OHC engine was actually a Wolseley Hornet engine with two pieces of sheet metal attached to disguise it!!
Sam |
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2010 Posts |
Posted - 27/12/2016 : 13:39:29
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Sam, I wonder why you said'perhaps it was a secret'? Is this something you have learned from some where?
It would actually make sense because we know that Cecil Kimber was at pains to avoid the motoring public thinking his MG engines were Wolseleys.
Perhaps a 'Cloak of Secrecy' was involved here.
Any ideas you MG historians out there?
Chris |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 27/12/2016 : 14:46:17
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I really do believe for marketing reasons the strong Wolseley connection with MG was a secret from the public.
I suspect William Morris and Cecil Kimber contrived to keep the source of MG OHC engines hidden from the public and hence the difficulty in checking this out today. Wilson McComb states (in the context of the M-type) "The Midget engines were sent direct to Edmund Road from Wolseley Motors." Has anyone seen photographs of engines being assembled at Abingdon. There are several photographs of stockpiles of engines and testing.
According to McComb the MG F-type was launched with its six cylinder 1271 cc OHC engine, which was actually a Wolseley Hornet engine, with two pieces of sheet metal attached to disguise it!
Wolseley was making ten of thousands of engines. It is well known that MG OHC engines evolved directly from a Wolseley (Hispano-Suiza) design. I seem to recall reading the OHC engine was one of several attractive assets Morris acquired with Wolseley along with a well developed gearbox manufacturing facility. It is clear William Morris did not move the gearbox production line so why would he move the OHC engine factory and an experienced workforce and development staff? Wolseley staff had of course been mass producing OHC vertical drive engines since the Great War.
A Wolseley Hornet Special enthusiast has a copy of a letter from the period telling dealers not enter Wolseleys and MG's in competition against each other (of course the public could do what they liked). It looks as though,in order to avoid sales of one brand damaging the other, the marketing plan was to try to seperate them as much as possible and keep the details of how much they had in common a secret.
As Chris puts it so well - Any ideas you MG historians out there?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 27/12/2016 15:00:35 |
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Ray Masters
United Kingdom
568 Posts |
Posted - 27/12/2016 : 22:34:56
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| Has anyone thought of asking Mike Allison what he knows of whereabouts of engine manufacture ?. |
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Mike the M
United Kingdom
481 Posts |
Posted - 27/12/2016 : 23:29:06
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From the book of Robin Barraclough and Phil Jennings, "Oxford to Abingdon" there are various Patent Specifications the first of which is for "Improved method of mounting and driving dynamos or electric generators of motor vehicles".
The first paragraph of each provisional specification starts:-
"We, Wolseley Motors (!927) Limited, a company registered under the laws of Great Britain, and Oliver Boden, British Subject, both of Drews Lane, Ward, End, Birmingham do hereby declare the nature of this invention to be as follows:-..............."
Therefore all the engines were built at Wolseley Motors (!927) Ltd at Ward End, Birmingham and were delivered to Oxford/Abingdon.
I hope this answers the question.
Mike Dalby |
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sven
Sweden
431 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 09:34:23
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Wolseley is the only sensible answer I think. 1 why make similar engines in different places? 2 The other possible factory would be Morris Motors which were over busy making engines for 18/80s , 14/40s and their Morris equivalents. Also, they were equipped with mm thread machines and did not use BSF threads.
Sven |
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Drolshagen
Germany
669 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 10:03:44
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Good Morning,
interesting Vidio I found, taken in the 1930s in Morris engine plant
Cowley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieF3d_YBUh4
have lot of fun to watch...........
Carl
J2 4362
L2 2036 |
Edited by - Drolshagen on 28/12/2016 10:04:10 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 13:35:36
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Thanks for all the replies but especially to Mike who has provided both the answer and very strong evidence.
The Wolseley engine facility at Ward End must have been considerable and much frequented by MG engineers. One wonders what would have become of MG without Wolseley.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 28/12/2016 13:41:16 |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
942 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 16:05:00
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Sorry to be a Party Pooper at this time, but where a Patent is registered is not prima-facie proof that it is the place where the work described was done.
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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mgmog
United Kingdom
467 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 17:10:51
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if you look at http://www.mgcc.co.uk/british-pathe-making-mgs-at-abingdon/ from 12 minutes or so ..
It might be that the Morris factory with its facilities for casting etc would be used to produce most parts, but the final build would be done at Abingdon. |
Edited by - mgmog on 28/12/2016 17:12:08 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 17:15:19
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Fair point Ian. I was just thinking about Mr Dyson and his products made in the far east. It still needs some final documentary evidence. Presumably where the engines came from is now outside living memory.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 28/12/2016 17:18:45 |
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mgmog
United Kingdom
467 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2016 : 17:53:49
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| Sorry that should be at Wolseley Factory, not Morris |
Edited by - mgmog on 28/12/2016 17:54:23 |
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Foz
United Kingdom
769 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2016 : 10:01:52
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Wolseley did make the early OHC engines. MG Car Co disguised the Minor 4 cyl engine with the alloy cam cover, sump and MG crested manifold. Some of these ideas came from the same minds as disguised the Morris Isis engine into the 18/80 unit. The Wolseley B6 engine also had a new alloy sump and cam cover and MG crested manifold to disguise it. I was told many years ago that the side plates were added to make the engine look more modern as designed had moved on from the Vintage style of externally visible bores with a separate water jacket to a more "mono block" style as seen on all subsequent MG engines. When Wolseley moved to chain driven camshafts the MG engines went to another "department"... I do not know if this was at Wolseley or Morris. Some of the special parts for the race cars came from Wolseley.... drawings show their part numbers often with instructions to select and then machine as.....
FOZ
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