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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
 Posted - 29/12/2016 : 10:34:43
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Lots of reading here but to sum up progress so far -
Wilson McComb states (in the context of the M-type) "The Midget engines were sent direct to Edmund Road from Wolseley Motors."
McComb also says the MG F-type six cylinder 1271 cc OHC engine was actually a Wolseley Hornet engine with two pieces of sheet metal attached to disguise it!!
Chris Lambert of the Pre War Minor Network draws attention to a line from John Presnell's authoritative book 'Morris - The cars and the company'. (Haynes 2013) which states regardless of who designed the Minor (the basis of the M-type) -"one thing is sure, namely that the engine was conceived-and built-at Wolseley"
Chris also adds-
There are plenty of ... early references to the three businesses (Morris, Wolseley & MG) sharing parts and expertise (eg The development of the 100 mph car* was carried out at the Wolseley plant at Ward End )
*100 mph side valve
Chris continues -
"Having marked differences in models that shared parts, including engines is not a modern phenomena although this pre-Nuffield business grouping were probably among the first to do so on such a large scale. A further example of this concerns the radiators that were fitted to the three marque's models - all of which originated from a single Morris factory."
So in short William Morrris logic seems to be -
Radiators (Morris/Wolseley/MG) .................................................all from one factory
Wolseley based gearboxes (Morris/Wolseley/MG) ......................all from one factory
OHC Minor and M-type engines..................................................all from one factory.
OHC Engine patents ....................................all Drews Lane, Ward, End, Birmingham
OHC Wolseley and MG engines in general ...................?
Sam |
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kjrj
United Kingdom
136 Posts |
Posted - 29/12/2016 : 23:30:45
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I too have been trying to find out what I can about the origins of our lovely little MMM engines. There is a clear line pointing from Hispano-Suiza (the HS.8 aero engine of WW1) to Wolseley (which built it under licence) to William Morris, who acquired Wolseley in 1927.
What is not quite so clear to me is the extent to which the 8hp OHC engine was the work of Wolseley, and to what extent Morris. Was it basically ready to go by the time Morris took over, was it just a few sketches, or was it something in between?
The history page on the Vintage Minor Register (http://www.vintageminor.co.uk/history/history.htm) states that the patent application for the vertical dynamo was filed on 5th October 1928, jointly by Wolseley Motors (1927) Ltd and Oliver Boden, and that therefore the design is post-acquisition. However, the priority date of the patent doesn't necessarily reflect when the work was done. The original Minor was launched on 11th October 1928 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Minor_(1928)) - only one week after the patent application! - and it would appear from this that, shortly before launch, somebody said "we have a good design here - let's get a patent application in quick!" You don't have to patent something as soon as you invent it. You *do* have to patent it before it enters the public domain.
We also see that the OHC Minor could be troublesome in service - nothing to do with the car itself, mainly poor maintenance in not reassembling the vertical drive properly - and that Morris soon set to work on a side-valve alternative. OHC and SV Minors ran side by side from 1930 and the original OHC model was dropped in 1932. Leonard Lord was sent to Wolseley immediately after the acquisition and the SV engine has his fingerprints all over it. He was a production man through and through, only interested in things that could be made cheaply and maintained easily. He would surely have seen the service difficulties of the OHC engine right from the start, and the fact that he didn't can it straight away would suggest that the design was fairly far advanced before he arrived.
Still, that's only my speculation, and if anybody knows more about the origins of the engine I'd love to know.
Lastly, the yoke above the MMM dynamo forms a simple but effective universal joint, allowing a little vertical movement and also tolerating the dynamo being mounted fractionally off vertical. Out of curiosity, does anybody know what provision the Hispano-Suiza vertical drive had for expansion, skimming of heads and variation in head gasket thickness, or for that matter the earlier OHC Wolseleys?
Thanks,
Kevin
Kevin Jones
Letchworth, Herts
NA0950 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 30/12/2016 : 01:29:47
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Thanks Kevin. You bring up some interesting topics.
To try to keep this thread simple and centred on "Where were MG Triple-M engines made?" I have started a new one entitled "Viper Aero Engine and 1920's Wolseley 10" where you can see the vertical drive as it appeared on a fighter 'plane and a 1920's Wolseley 10.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 30/12/2016 01:36:39 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 13:46:53
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At last I have the answer thanks to Mike Allison and a very good authority on Wolseley.
To quote Mike directly -
"All engines, most gearboxes and all axles were supplied by Wolseley throughout the Triple-M period. Carburetters came from SU, across the road at Alderley Park, but chassis frames were made at MG, where there was a suitable press-shop, but the chassis fittings, like trunnion boxes were made by the motorcycle firm James. Electrical components were bought in from Lucas (who owned Rotax by this time). Bodies were made by Carbodies Ltd until the end of 1933, after which they were made by Morris Bodies Ltd in Coventry."
I wonder, post 1929, how MG would have progressed without the Wolseley factory at Ward End.
Sam |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 16:55:02
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Sam not all works bodys were supplied by Carbodies - at least two batches of 50 J2 bodies made by Mulliner.
TH |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1638 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 17:17:39
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Referring to Barrys earlier reply were all the " special" engines i.e. C, J3, J4,K3,Q,R and works prepared specials built completely from scratch in the engine department at Abingdon ? Were they partially built by Wolseley or were they completely built at the factory from components supplied by Wolseley and others such as Ambrosia cranks and Martlet Pistons etc
I suspect the latter since I was told many years ago by an employee who actually worked on the J3's and 4's that the engines were built at Abingdon.
There is a photo somewhere showing K3 and J4 engines being worked on but from memory they are all complete units. Are there any other pictures showing an engine assembly area ?
TH |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2017 : 19:12:43
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Thanks Terry. I think Mike was commenting in broad terms about bodies in the context of a lengthy and informative email so some detail might require fine tuning. I am sure Mike would be aware that were exceptions
I have only just discovered where MG engines were made and have yet to learn where "special" engines were made. Wolseley seem to have had the major equipment and a 'centre of excellence' but it is easy to imagine MG's competition department taking engines to pieces and rebuilding them sometimes in dramatic all night sessions and trying different components. I hope someone will tell us. A picture would be great.
Sam |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3104 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2017 : 23:19:08
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Terry I forwarded your question (as follows) to Mike Allison -
"Were all the " special" engines i.e. C, J3, J4,K3,Q,R and works prepared specials built completely from scratch in the engine department at Abingdon ? Were they partially built by Wolseley or were they completely built at the factory from components supplied by Wolseley and others such as Ambrosia cranks and Martlet Pistons etc
I suspect the latter since I was told many years ago by an employee who actually worked on the J3's and 4's that the engines were built at Abingdon.
There is a photo somewhere showing K3 and J4 engines being worked on but from memory they are all complete units. Are there any other pictures showing an engine assembly area ?"
Mike replied -
This is difficult to answer for all those models. The C and J3 engines were probably built up at Wolseley, since they were "production line" cars, although I strongly suspect that the cars actually being raced were stripped and inspected by Jacko's men before an event, as he was a perfectionist. The early K3's used standard spec parts, so they were probably built up at Ward End, although subjected to Jacko's beetle eyes before an event. The later K3's were fitted with special (highly polished) rods, and metalled with "racing metal", also had special large capacity sumps, and I am fairly sure these were built from parts at Abingdon. The Q and R engines were so special, that I am sure they were built at Abingdon from parts.
All cylinder heads were built up at Abingdon because all racing engines after 1932 used circlip in place of cotters for the valves, and triple valve springs. Jacko told me that if any of his men spent less than 40 hours on a head assembly, he asked what they hadn.t done! So there was no joking!
No MG success was achieved by a car which was not properly and carefully prepared. This I was told by Jacko, and I certainly believe this... I think it applies to any competition car, to this day!
All credit to Mike for his generous help and these fascinating answers.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 03/01/2017 23:25:28 |
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