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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
 Posted - 20/02/2020 : 09:49:58
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I feel it's my duty to report this to the general forum. This happened to me and maybe to others.
As you will all know, I am relatively new to MMMs and I am learning slowly, sometimes too late ( as in this case ). I am reporting this only to protect other owners, I have no other agenda.
I am always willing to provide praise for good services and workmanship received and it is good to publicise good services to fellow enthusiasts who may be seeking assistance from good specialists.
I am disappointed to say that I have not been well served by one company. My Issues :
( 1 ) Very poor progress over months.
( 2 ) Incoherant / errors in timesheet information
( 3 ) Ambitious costings.
( 4 ) limited details of likely charges at the outset of the work etc. along with the distinct lack of progress.
( 5 ) Presentation of eight one line invoices with the expectation to pay without further scrutiny.
The point has been reached where I have had no option but to cancel and pull both engine builds from this MMM engine specialist and I have since been advised by several MMM enthusiasts (two whilst I was at Stoneleigh ) that I have done the right thing. I have not named the individual concerned or the company as I believe it unprofessional to expose such disputes and/or identities on public forum. However, whilst this person came strongly recommended by several, I do think that some specialists are far better equipped and generally more efficient than some others who offer similar services. This is possibly my error in not making more detailed enquiries at the outset although I like to think the best of people. When I came into the MMM world, I thought that using a recommended engine builder would ensure that I would get two engines rebuilt for a reasonable sum and timescale, I am an engine builder myself, but Rovers, which are more of a basic standard design rather than these 'quirky' unfamiliar (to me) engines. If others have experienced similar problems over the past couple of years (I know of one who visited me) with poor engine build services, then I would be pleased to make direct contact with me. I have two engine builds to give out and I wish to avoid making the same mistake twice. Any recommendations would also be very much appreciated, I have a couple already.
For my qualification as to my disappointment, I trained in Engineering to degree level at Loughborough Uni, trained with a US company called Kearney & Trecker who built computer controlled machine centres, so have some engineering knowledge. being the moderator and Worldwide Rover Club P1 specialist does allow me to hopefully protect others. I resolved the dispute by paying the invoices (corrected by me) and disclosures, yesterday 19th February 2020 I collected all the parts from the builder without further issues.
I have a couple of recommendations, more would be appreciated.
Chris
J2353
J4129
Edited by the webmaster 20/2/2020 |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 20/02/2020 10:10:54 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2020 : 13:34:34
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Although edited now, at least I have been able to highlight the situation I experienced with the engine builder. If only one enthusiast is aware then I feel justified.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1722 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2020 : 14:28:52
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The advice always has to be to visit your noggin and natter and talk to people.
I am in the south west and now have people I trust.
I would be happy to recommend and also to warn!!!
There are unscrupulous people out there.
Sorry to hear, it is not a new story.
But it is brilliant when at last you find yourself behind the wheel...
Good luck
P |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
941 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2020 : 15:05:58
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I fully understand the Club and Committee's concern over allowing the Forum as a place to name and criticise specific individuals or businesses. This will be directly related to the potential liability for libel and the attendant exposure to the risk of damages. On this basis, prejudicial statements must be removed or modified.
It is, however, well understood that phrasing comments in the form of "in my opinion X is not to be trusted" absolves all from this risk. Opinions, right, wrong or even foolish are free to hold.
In the wider interests of members of this forum, cannot guidance along these lines be provided when an 'offending' statement is made, so that all can benefit from the lessons learned?
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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Ben Stephens
United Kingdom
167 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 07:39:02
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I think the lessons learned above is enough. It would be wrong to name the said company/individual without a reply from them. Opinions for what they are worth are not necessarily fact. Often, and having been on both so sides in this game, there are two sides to the story.
As said above, it’s best to talk to various people and see what the general consensus is. One thing is understanding your requirements and expectations and what other customers expectations were. A lot of people will be happy to throw an engine in, and get a limited invoice at the end, others want a complete build record and itemised invoice etc. Some companies do a complete photographic record of your build, along with test sheets and very detailed reports of the work carried out.
A big lesson I have learnt after many engines rebuilds is double the estimated time!
Kind regards
Ben
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1722 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 09:26:18
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Ben
My problems involved
1. a leak from the back nearside head stud just after the engine rebuild for RX9981. I did not know of this problem beforehand so could not ask for it to be checked.
2. undue delays caused by loss of RX9619's engine and something else that I forget, both I suspect untrue. The engine eventually came back beautifully done but I have had nothing to do with that particular engineer since.
In the first instance the engine was reluctantly taken back. There was a subsequent problem and I removed the sump to investigate. Inside I found the engineer's damaged ring compressor, obviously left on when the engine was assembled. The engine runs well now so the basic work would seem to have been sound.
For me it was a big learning curve as I am not an engineer and possibly had unrealistic expectations of the service I would receive. One's lack of knowledge when coupled with other's exploitative attitudes can lead to explosive situations.
The submarine service runs a pamphlet called "Anonymouse" with little cartoons as I recall, it was a long time ago. This allowed individuals to report on their mistakes, anonymously and without fear of reprisals, for the benefit of others.
The MMM fraternity is growing and new inexperienced faces are appearing who could benefit from my and others' stories. As occasional poor service still seems to be an issue I think we need our own "AnonyMMMouse" |
Edited by - PeterL on 21/02/2020 09:27:06 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 11:25:12
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I raised this post, thankyou for the many private emails of support and for those enthusiasts I have been able to update. from this I have sensed the mood on this subject, not one was negative to my stance. For some it would appear to be like ' groundhog day ' !! Should one intervene and advise ? .....Absolutely !.
I am not in any local ' Noggin & Natter ', I don't generally frequent public houses meeting places but would be willing to attend if I knew of any in my two areas of occupation ( not including Paphos, Cyprus which does have its own local classic car club gatherings ). Are there any gatherings ? Where are they ? Are they published ?
I am not a particular fan of this forum, many enthusiasts I have met, now know, both in the UK and overseas and in speaking never go on or even access, why is that ? I don't see that in other forums.
If others don't like my stance, thats tough, live with it....I will always champion to protect and enlighten enthusiasts and in particular challenge those whom I feel are not ' playing fair ' .
I will leave it at that. I am off to Cyprus tomorrow, then a cruise, I received a 10% refund from my engine builder.....mmm, so paid his bill and collected my parts, I can at least spend time away with my family to underline this unpleasant episode and move on.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
941 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 11:27:32
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Ben
I appreciate the point about 'fairness' which you are making. However a conversation between two enthusiasts at Stoneleigh or at a Natter is equally and totally one sided. The third party then has no inkling of what is being said on these occasions and no possibility of any reply or response.
At least in open forum, with guidance on the legally sound wording, there is the opportunity for a balanced conversation, from which the readers can draw a far more resopurceful conclusion.
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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tonym
United Kingdom
653 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 15:27:21
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Chris
You might not be a fan of this forum, but you have managed to use it for well over a thousand posts !! |
Edited by - tonym on 21/02/2020 15:28:06 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 16:10:43
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Only a thousand ? I must be slipping.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3237 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 19:50:33
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Chris
This web site did lead to you finding a really clean J2 manual.
George
L2023 |
Edited by - George Eagle on 21/02/2020 19:51:48 |
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Ben Stephens
United Kingdom
167 Posts |
Posted - 21/02/2020 : 21:00:02
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Ian,
Unfortunately the written word carries more weight. Don’t get me wrong, I think written reviews are an important part of today’s purchasing experience. However, as I say, briefly I have been on the other side of the fence.An unfair bad review can cause a lot of heartache and angst. One of my chosen specialists will never have a bad word to say about any other specialist. However, their silence can be much more damning.
Also, I realise there are some real horror stories, and I wasn’t trying to belittle those (MG Maverick and PeteL), I was merely saying I support the forum rules. I have had many issues myself, even having to have one specialist remove and change pistons in a rebuilt engine, a steering box FAIL, an exhaust manifold machined 10deg of parallel the list goes on!
Kind regards
Ben
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Barry Walker
United Kingdom
227 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2020 : 12:18:41
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Dear All. One of the reasons these disappointing jobs and experiences occur is quite honestly because the "old school" MMM suppliers and engineers are not approached for advice, many like myself with over 50 years experience.....but not on forums.
If younger members and new owners about to embark on a rebuild got in touch with perhaps myself, Mike Dowley, Barry Foster, Oliver Richardson, Bob Jones, George Eagle (just for examples) we could guide you to many reputable engine builders, machine shops,and people we know to be good that never advertise, where experence has shown they do nothing but good work.
Remember, there are not many engine builders that can really build a MMM cylinder head to perfection.
I am always happy to give the benefit of my years, and then hopefully not having to read posts like Chris has had to write; but the best don't come cheap, but then you only have to have it done once.
All best, Barry Walker ('Old School' or 'old codger'; but I know a bit!)
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 23/02/2020 : 17:49:13
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George,
My dislike of the forum is in response to its use as a medium to berate ( reference my recent post on this subject ) , no other reason.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 23/02/2020 : 18:09:31
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Barry, and the other , Old School members. Has anyone ever thought of producing a dedicated MMM Workshop Manual that details all the knowledge you possess for the benefit of others like me who are new to the marque. Not to labour my association with Rover, in the club we have produced an in depth well documented Workshop Manual set of volumes for each model. I am currently in Cyprus so do not have a copy to hand, but will post some photos on my return in a few weeks. The Manuals detail everything one requires to maintain, restore, conserve all aspects of the models. Largest section is the complete rebuild of the engines, processes, dimensions, threads, upgrades etc. etc. There are of course specialists with the knowledge, time and facilities to complete the work on behalf of others, as I do. I am not in it for the money, at £10 an hour and no VAT, no added on 10% commission as in my case, just to assist other owners. How about seminars ? I run one every year as a gathering with assistance to those who are new to the marque. I could go on and ask why the club officials have not undertaken some teaching seminars ?? If those who know, why are not hints and tips published officially in a proper section rather than the current setup. Some of you need to join other clubs to see how they operate and help their members, I speak from experience and from the heart.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1044 Posts |
Posted - 23/02/2020 : 19:51:50
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4 and 6 cylinder road cars an several yearbook articles are a great place to start.
And then also pay attention to who wrote them, you’ll find that the list Barry gave has done their work in documenting info for future generations.
Onno "J,D" Könemann |
Edited by - Onno on 23/02/2020 19:52:31 |
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