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n/a
4 Posts |
 Posted - 18/03/2008 : 14:26:55
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| I have a restored J2 that I bought from Barry Walker last year. I have a hood frame. Can any body tell me where the hood frame pivots should fix to the body. Do I use ordinary screwa? A drawing or photo would help. Charlie Cartwright Penzance |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2008 : 13:24:56
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Charlie,
I'll pop up the road this evening & have a look for you.
JMH |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2008 : 20:23:30
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Charlie,
The exact fixing point/method for your car may vary depending on who made the body currently fitted. I have measured up from J2356 which still wears the original body. Fixing is by 1/4 BSF, the feet are mounted directly to the steel of the top of the wheel-arch (through any trim), there is no wooden frame at this point, so you through-bolt. You will also find that these bolts will go directly through the mud-guards behind.
As for the position; if you take a vertical line off the front face of the small bulkhead (in front of the rear axle)then the front hole is on a transverse line exactly 5 inches in front of this.
I assume that your hood frame has the "feet" fitted & is complete. The webbing straps on the frame fit to lengthened pins on the windscreen & rear of the body.
Some non original body tubs differ significantly in the rear wheel-arch area, so none of the above may actually apply to your car if the body has been renewed at some point.
I took a couple of photos, so can send these to you if you wish.
However, from personal experience:
When folded the frame can still dig in to your body.
It adds weight.
With no hood a J2 looks beautiful, but with it up.....yuk!
Small children will rattle it up & down (annoying the driver)when riding in the back, but it does give you something to tie the dog's lead to!
Regards
JMH
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2008 : 20:51:40
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Having just spent a considerable amount of time fitting a hood frame to a P-type, my advice is to set the exact position of the hood frame pivot points only once you have established where the frame needs to be in order for the bows to sit parallel with the top of the windscreen when the frame is erect - Ideally, you need equal measurements from both corners of the screen to the front bow and to eye up both bows and the screen from the back of the car for parallel. Also, the 2 bows need to be parallel with each other and with the top of the rear body panel when erect. Unless you are very lucky, you will find this damned near impossible, however any effort is worth it as the hood will sit nice an 'square' on the car and they can look awful when crooked.
Having achieved all of the above, you may then find that the frame does not lie very evenly when collapsed. That is less of a problem but further fiddling may help reduce the problem.
To acheive a balance between the above mentioned states, a degree of compromise is usually necessary. A slight alteration of the position of the pivot/mounting points can offer a useful adjustment to help achieve the optimum fit.
There has been some correspondence about hood frames on the Forum before, but relating to P-types I believe. The principles should be the same. Somebody produced some useful diagrams and measurements which I found most helpful. |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2008 : 14:43:28
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I've done some more digging & can offer the following:
The webbing straps went the whole way from body to windscreen.
Webbing to bow fixings of rivets, screws (right through the bows) & doubled webbing stitched through have all been observed back in the days when nobody could be bothered (or had the money) to make new.
The spacing was: Rear dot to rear bow - 15". Rear bow to front bow - 14". Front bow to windscreen - 29". These dimensions were taken from J2396's original frame. The bows will not have changed over the years, but the webbing could have shrunk, stretched or not changed - your guess is as good as mine. But here's the rub; Carbodies apparently produced the bodies in batches of about 20 to order, using a pretty rough & ready spec, thus small variations will be common making the fit of hoods & frames a bit of a hit & miss affair (a bit like doors).
Charlie, you probably need about 10 pairs of hands, lots of string + a fair bit of time & patience to get it looking right. If you have a hood already, some of the variables will now be fixed, likewise if your frame is complete with webbing.
Regards
JMH
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Simon
United Kingdom
455 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2008 : 18:43:41
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| Just to confuse things,my J2 had small rectangular wooden blocks (angled to suit)mounted on the inside wheel arch,over the trim,and bevelled to suit to bring the frame mounting brackets square. These raise the brackets about 3/4" or so. These were original fittings and still covered in the original trim rexine and bolted through as described. Car slightly later(J4199) The webbing was only up to the front bow and doubled back to the rear. Simon. |
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Simon
United Kingdom
455 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2008 : 19:00:10
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| Re previous, I should have said the blocks are square to the face of the angled inner rear mudguard,they are,of course,still in line with the curve of that section. Simon. |
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n/a
4 Posts |
Posted - 20/03/2008 : 21:48:36
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thanks so much for the info. I will be mesuring over this weekend!!!!
Charlie |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 21/03/2008 : 16:01:06
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This is getting interesting.....I must confess, the hood has only ever been up twice on J2396 in my lifetime! Once was on the way back from a trial in the 60s - January & it was snowing, so the driver gave in to the cries of anguish coming from the back. The only other time was in the early 80s when we put it up to take the dimensions for a guy in the US.
It remains however that the webbing spacing for the car is as it was in 1953 when the car was purchased - it may have been original, or it may not.
I find it interesting that it would seem that "1/2" length & "full length" variations of webbing arrangement may existed pre-war. Logic says that "full length" would have helped prevent enthusiastic owners from tensioning a wet & saggy hood with the help of the windscreen, only to suffer dire results when it dried out again! J2396 has the early weaker screen & 2 longer pins for the webbing under the hood. How many examples of original windscreen can we find & what are the differences, if any, between pin arrangements on early/later screens?
K1W1 - with the dimensions I gave, the measurements are between the pin fastenings, so there is an allowance at each end to cover the body/windscreen edges.
If we all measured the length between the rear of the body to the top of the scuttle, I wouldn't mind betting there'd be a few surprises.
Regards
Jeremy |
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Simon
United Kingdom
455 Posts |
Posted - 21/03/2008 : 16:15:31
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| Without labouring the point too much,you really can't mount the chrome hood brackets direct on the inner wheel arch as it has that inward slope which would bring the mounting bolt holes in at an angle (as seen from front or back)instead of being on a horizontal plane which is essential. Therefore there has to be a packing piece to achieve this. The webbing seemed to have been run back from the front bow as found but I can see that it makes sense to carry it forward to the screen or how else can the frame stay up? Simon |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 22/03/2008 : 09:56:29
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| I have seen the "mounting blocks" on wheel arches and (despite the claims of "originality") doubt whether the factory would have done this, why would they if elongating the bows at the mounting points would have brought about the same result? I made a hood frame by copying an original set and sat in the car while the bows were positioned to give the best result. I am over 6 feet tall and have to pull my head in a bit on the rare occasions that I drive with the hood up, just as I did over 50 years ago when I had a P-type! |
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JMH
United Kingdom
915 Posts |
Posted - 22/03/2008 : 11:36:50
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K1W1-
Wow, thats one smart J2 you have there. From recollection, the rear panel of the hood on J2396 sat more vertical & didn't look 1/2 as tidy either! However I agree, 5" is a significant amount, I'm even begining to wonder if there are differences in the hood bows? Certainly the ones in J2396 did not if I remember correctly stow down as neatly as yours do. The feet of the bows did mount direct as yours do, the wheel arch having a reasonably level profile at that point, if some need block inserts to bring the feet into the correct alignment, it would seem that there are detail differences in bodywork between cars here as well. I will do my best to find a photo of the car with hood up - hood & frame have spent at least the last 15 years up in the loft of 117, so getting them back on the car is not a 5 minute job. The webbing dimensions I gave came from a drawing made by the owner - who has made a lifetime habbit of recording all things J2.
Incidentally, the rear body to scuttle measured as you did for J2396 is 45", which I guess is reasonably close.
Charlie- What seemed such a simple undertaking is turning into anything but! As you are in UK, perhaps the best strategy would be to wait until Silverstone, it's bound to rain - then measure up as many cars as you can. J2396 will as usual, be sitting there with just a tonneau cover.
Regards
Jeremy |
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 22/03/2008 : 15:37:33
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John and others. I note in your picture of the frame and webbing, that it appears that the webbing is anchored to the gas tank strap nuts on the outside of the body. Is that correct? I would think on my Pa that the webbing should be attached to the rear on the inside of car. Any help would be appreciated.
By the way, this is another example of how great this forum is. It is so heplful
thanks
Mike L |
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kimber
United Kingdom
1529 Posts |
Posted - 22/03/2008 : 15:58:33
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The webbing slips (tight) over the hood fixing studs for the lift-the-dot fasteners. The slightly longer studs are sometimes used in this application.
On the various J and P types I have owned and worked on, the webbing goes right from windscreen to rear edge of body tub and is fixed to each hood bow.
I have also seen cars with the packing blocks under the mounting brackets and some without.
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Edited by - kimber on 22/03/2008 16:02:54 |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3246 Posts |
Posted - 22/03/2008 : 20:13:38
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I have also found the webbing on a PB 4 seater I rebuilt in the 70's went from the windscreen, was fixed to the hood frame, and was then fixed to the extended lift a dot pins at the rear of the body tub.
The same applies to the webbing on my NB 2 seater except that the rear of the web has brass rings sewn into it which are then secured on the extended pins.
I will be using the information and photos posted on this subject to correctly position the hoodsticks/hood on L2023. Thanks to those members who have replied to the topic in such detail.
George |
Edited by - George Eagle on 22/03/2008 20:20:59 |
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 22/03/2008 : 21:32:25
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Thanks, looking at the picture again, I see that the webbing is attached to the lift a dot pins, not the tank strap nuts. I assume it was done the same way when attached to the windscreen. I assume that the hood material itself could be completely removed, with the frame bows and webbing remaing attached and folded behind the seat.
Mike L |
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