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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
 Posted - 27/06/2008 : 16:36:40
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I have been able to secure a nice set of lap seat belts. Any suggestions of where to anchor the belts on a two seat PA? Any help would be welcomed. I would hate to have to weld new cross sections to the frame.
Mike L |
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sven
Sweden
435 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 18:52:50
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Hi everyone
I think it is time for a forumdiscussion on seatbelts and when/or/ if/ they would be helpful in an accident.
Saloon designed for belts- I would not drive without them. Open car with rollover bar -I would use them. Open car without rollover bar- doubtful. My L types -no.
I await suggestions and comments.
Sven Sweden |
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Rodney Collins
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 19:03:14
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I can see no point what-so-ever in having seat belts in a prewar MG, what ever model. The safty element of a P type is luck, pure and simple. get hit hard in a P type ( or any other type) and its luck if you servive. My thoughts are don't waist your time or your money in fitting something that was designed for modern car design, take your chance and enjoy pre [red]health and safty motoring!!!
Rodney
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Rodney Collins
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 19:06:15
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PS sorry about the red in brackets, I thought I would hi-light the health-& -safty so I clicked on red! I got the word red in brackets! Can anyone teach me about computors?????
Rodney |
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 21:05:59
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I can appreciate the argument against belts, but has anyone ever fitted a set? Years ago I never used belts. After 1966 my regular cars(Chevrolet Rag tops) by law had them. By 1986 when I drove my 54 TF from New Jersey to California and back to New Jersey (over 7000 miles) in just two weeks, I had lap belts installed in the car and got used to them. Now I just don't feel comfortable without them. The set of belts I have are the hook type and are the type used in the 50's. I would like to hear from anyone who has fitted a set to a PA. Thanks.
Mike L |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 21:22:06
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Mike
I agree it does feel strange to drive a car without seat belts. Perhaps a lap belt would provide psychological comfort. However I tend to agree with Rodney that you are probably better placed if you leave the car, in the event of an accident. This of course assumes that you do not have a roll over bar. I might not, however, word my views quite as strongly as Rodney.
There is a related thread now running on the VSCC forum about body protection. Although it is primarily addressing competition, an accident is an accident whether you are on the track or the road. Perhaps we should consider wearing leathers rather than contemplating seat belts.
Peter
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Robin Macmillan
United Kingdom
415 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 22:01:41
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Well as someone who deals with people involved in accidents I feel I must contribute to this issue. Roll bars are useful if the car rolls which is realtively uncommon. Seat belts may prevent ejection (very worthwhile) and chest/face injuries (very worthwhile)for front end impacts. Side and rear impacts are less well managed with seat belts bu again may prevent ejection.
I certainly find it difficult to be in any car without them and though my PB has sometime to go before I shall be lucky enough to be driving it am actively considering how to mount belts. Lap and diagonal are my intention but quite how remains to be determined so any ideas most welcome |
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JohnSteedman
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 22:28:08
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This is a continuing topic for T-Types. Our United States friends seem obsessed with self-preservation when the logic of a seatbelt when you are are driving a tea chest with a steel rod aimed at your heart and 15 gallons of petrol strapped to your back suggests that being thrown clear is your best option.
My question is:
How many people have been injured / killed in a pre 1955 MG ever?
John Steedman
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Robin Macmillan
United Kingdom
415 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 23:00:10
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| right and wrong ! Fatal accidents are not the issue, injuries in relatively low speed (by modern standards) collisions are capable of reduction by seat belts. Ejection from vehicles are horrendous. |
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Bob Clare
United Kingdom
278 Posts |
Posted - 27/06/2008 : 23:13:18
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I should point out (as a former safety professional) that risk assessment is a pre-requisite for any decision on safety provisions. If you examine the design of Triple-M cars (any - not just P Types), you will see that the most likely crash (i.e. frontal impact) will always result in the steering column ending your otherwise healthy life. The only chance you have to avoid this is, when you see you are going to suffer a frontal impact, to subside gently onto the passenger seat (or lap as the case may be). Wearing a seat belt would not facilitate this move.
Please drop this subject - the first contributor who suggests a way to fit seat belts will get the immediate attention of the officials who will then introduce not only a requirement to fit them but also a fine for not wearing a potentially lethal bit of kit.
Be warned!!
Bob Clare
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 28/06/2008 : 01:33:58
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OK, twenty five years ago ,I was driving my T Type and my then 6 year old son must have touched or leaned on the door, the door opened and he fell out on the road, no seat belts. Lucky for us he was not hit by another car and survived with cuts and a mild arm fracture.
If we are reluctant to address this issue for non technical reasons, please email privately if someone has a suggestion on what I originally asked. Where do I attach the belts?
By the way, Frank Churchill, co founder of the New England MG T Register was tragically killed at low speed driving his MG TD. when he was involved in a collision. I don't know if seat belts would have mattered.
Mike L |
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RYates
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 28/06/2008 : 04:23:24
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There is another aspect to the (presumed - here in the US) safety/psychological comfort factor of seat belts. I can tell you from experience that vintage racers who have no or little safety equipment (no roll bar, no fuel cell, etc) have fewer off-track excursions or spins than those who have roll bars and fuel cells. Those who have only roll bars have fewer off-tracks/spins than those with roll CAGES. When we perceive ourselves to be better protected, our subconscious allows our safety zone to expand much more than when we perceive ourselves to be more at risk. This is a false sense of security. In modern cars it is shoulder harnesses, head restraints, and air bags that save lives and reduce injuries. Our cars are not going to have any of those - - I hope. Fitting seatbelts will surely result eventually in one letting one's guard down - if only just a little.
Personally, I want my defensive driving instincts to be at their maximum when I am out in my MMM car.
Cheers all,
Reed Yates |
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John James
United Kingdom
965 Posts |
Posted - 28/06/2008 : 20:21:16
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No mamby pamby seat belts for me. I just steer clear of all the idiots on the road (and there are plenty of them!) Keep your wits about you, never assume that the idiots are going to do what they signal they are going to do, watch out for them coming out of side turnings, never assume thay are going to let a red traffic light impede their progress - the list is endless!
As Reed says, defensive driving is the key. Driving a Triple-M or a T-Type is a challenge, but together with tinkering with them is well over half the fun. We have few freedoms left - vive la difference! |
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leckstein
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 28/06/2008 : 22:56:26
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The philosophic discussion is very nice, but it is beginning to appear that the technical question of where to attach the belts can not or will not be answered.
Mike L |
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RYates
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 29/06/2008 : 02:12:08
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Mike,
If you are set on doing it, sign youself up with the MG TA-B-C list. I am certain the archives there will produce the answers to your question.
Reed |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1578 Posts |
Posted - 29/06/2008 : 11:56:05
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Mike,
Q. Where to attach the lap belts in a P Type 2 seater?
A. Assuming your seating configuration is a single piece squab and 2 cushions with wood frames located on top of the floor boards, I have looked at my PB and suggest the following.
ItÆs just at the rebuild stage with the body tub sat on the chassis and I have the wire frame of the seat squab - (squab = what you lean back against; cushion = what you rest your bottom on) - stored in roughly its correct fore-aft position. Viewed like this it would seem possible to make some lap belt fixing brackets to fit to the chassis cross-member to which the forward end of the rear spring mounts.
It would seem ill-advised to secure seat belts to any points which are not part of the chassis:
i.e. NOT to any body or propshaft tunnel parts.
The forward rear spring cross-member may be slightly forward of the ideal belt fixing in relation to the æHÆ point, but this would depend on your height and the consequential fore/aft position of your seat. (The æHÆ point is the hip point and is the pivot centre of the body torso and thigh).
The rear spring forward cross-member would provide a secure chassis fixing for both inboard and outboard fixings for each end of passenger and driver lap belts.
I hasten to add that this is only my observation of a possible solution, for which there is no liability.
PS. You mentioned a door inadvertently opening and a passenger falling out, wouldnÆt it be easier to fit a secondary safety catch to the doors? Vintage Supplies (Paul Beck) have a selection.
If youÆd like a photo & diagram of the æHÆ point of what IÆve described above, please send me you email address.
Hope this helps.
Bruce. |
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