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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
257 Posts |
 Posted - 08/02/2023 : 13:33:34
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Hello other C Type owners.
After 60 years of motoring, I decided it was time to give C0294 a major service which included removal and cleaning of the springs. When cleaning the near side front trunnion box, I noticed that the EX 120 casting for the cover plate stamped with a 7. Why was this identified in this way? Were the first batch of C Types marked in this way for identification?
I ask this question because the provenance of this chassis frame has always been in question as there are no chassis records for its build in June 1932. Does this further the my belief that the frame tank and other parts were repaired and sold on to Mrs C Turner and came from the 7th C Type built, C0257, after its crash in Germany when the chassis and body were replaced for the Brooklands 500.
David Potter, Dave Cooksey, Hamish McNinch, Barry Foster and others who may still have original parts still fitted to their C Types.
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Onno
Netherlands
1045 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2023 : 17:30:24
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I think there are ex120 marks in a few castings commonly used on the D,J,F so it might not be specific for the C type
Onno "J,D,M" Könemann |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
257 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2023 : 10:27:39
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Hello Onno.
Thank you for your reply. My post departed before I had completed it.
The question is perhaps directed to C Type owners of the first 14 cars. These were assembled during one week, prior to the 12/12.
Handed items such as the trunnion supports would have been kitted as pairs and possibly marked accordingly to aid rapid construction. The photo shows that the 7 is stamped after the EX120 casting. Was this for the 7th car? Further inspection yesterday I noticed that the offside is not stamped with a 7, so possibly replaced. This may be another clue to the origin of the chassis frame and other parts discovered when the car was dismantled for inspection in 1964. The fact that C0257 was damaged when sliding off the track and down a bank and arrested by tree trunk further strengthens the the theory of many years that MG used parts from damaged works owned cars to complete the last two cars in 1932. C0293 was sold new and exported with the engine and gearbox from C0257 early in 1932. I have details for the damage and letters between M.G. and Emmerich's lawyer over the insurance and repairs required for C0257 dated August 1931.
It would be interesting to know if any of the 12/12 14 cars have survived with the original chassis parts, as these may also have a number suffix stamped on the cover. Research over many years indicates that only two cars may be still have an original frame and that is C0260 owned by Hamish McNinch, and C0253 owned now by David Potter. C0260 should have 10 stamped on the plate and David's car a 3.
Just attempting to close an investigation of more than 60 years, started when Geoff Coles visited in 1964 and noted that the chassis had been repaired on the offside where the front spring box is attached, and the fuel tank was of the original design with 3 point mounting and painted as a works car in cream / yellow.
In my 80th year, it would be good to confirm the origins of C0294, which have been questioned, ever since Mike Allison recovered the C Type build files up to chassis number 43. I was asked in 2012 if I had the files as they would be useful for inclusion in the Hawke History of MMM racing cars, being prepared for publication at that time.
Thank you all for any help you can provide.
Allan Bentley
At that time there were 43 C Types recorded in the factory records not 44 as on the body plate.
There are 5 cars existing from the first build
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Pots
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2023 : 07:40:34
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Hi Allan,
Interesting question, Should be simple enough to solve the mystery. I will have a look and tell you whether a 3, or anything else, is stamped on C0253. I remember the EX120 casting numbers….. car down at Dads at the moment, but will get down there and look.
Pots |
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Pots
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2023 : 08:12:46
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Nearly !!! I checked our restoration photos, just in case I had taken a pic of the trunnions boxes. I have two photos, unpainted when fitting up, and, finished assembly painted. Focus tantalisingly just not good enough, but I’ll send..(cant attach currently, I’m doing something wrong!)
Pots |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
257 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2023 : 10:19:09
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Thank you Duncan for your help.
Over many years I have been told to look for additional identification numbers in various places, so was too much of a coincidence to find the number 7 stamped on a chassis fitting opposite the chassis repair we had noted 60 years ago. It could have been stamped there when the chassis was dismantled for repair, but still points to C0257 being the origin.
I will be in contact directly, as this is not really a topic of interest to the forum.
All the very best. Allan B |
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2010 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2023 : 10:24:02
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On the contrary, Alan!
Chris |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1723 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2023 : 18:12:03
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| Ditto, reading avidly... |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
257 Posts |
Posted - 13/02/2023 : 19:41:06
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Thank you for your interest. I will keep you informed as I have uncovered some more interesting facts which I may need help with identification.
Interesting to read again the numerous letters and internal notes regarding the period after the accident and the need for the company to have a race ready C Type for the Brooklands 500 a month later. C0257 was it appears a new car fitted with engine AA105.
M.G. charged the insurance company for repairs to the tank radiator and body including 8 pints of black paint! C0257 never wore this body as it was rebuilt as a single seater with a new tank, for the 500 race and an Ulster skimpy body for the 1932 season.
Perhaps most of the insurance money when into building a new works car and the remains put aside. If Mrs C Turner paid the full price for a blown C Type, which was £575 M.G. must have rubbed their hands with glee selling on old for new! (Her husband had purchased at the same time a restored Blower 4.5 litre Bentley. Both Bentley and C Type were sold early in 1934).
I have just removed the drop arm and remembered that when inspected in 1964 we found that a crack had been welded over. Not knowing that the D Type had the same part, we cleaned up the weld as it looked untidy (for a scrutineer). Being a student apprentice in the aircraft industry I had access to all sorts of NDT so had it X ray checked and it was an excellent repair as the crack was very shallow and thought to be due to bending. Looking at the parts list for the repair I note that M.G. invoiced the insurers for a new drop arm. but it never got fitted to C0294.
That is it for tonight.
Allan B
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2010 Posts |
Posted - 13/02/2023 : 20:20:57
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Thanks for continuing this fascinating story for us, Allan.
Cheers,
Chris |
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Pots
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2023 : 14:19:54
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Right, I'm back from Dads.... So, there is clearly a 7 stamped after the EX120/ on the near side trunnion of our car, C0253. Like your car Allan the off side is blank, just the EX120 casting number. So, our trunnions would appear to be the same.
So, it looks like the 7 is not linked to the 7th C chassis built...?
I wonder whether the later C types have the stamped number too...I will have a look at C0287..
Pots
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Edited by - mgmog on 05/03/2023 11:15:51 |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2023 : 10:04:26
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Hi Duncan.
Thank you very much for this information. Next thing to ask is was the 7 stamped only on the first 14 cars. I do not remember seeing this number on C0286 when I worked on it, but that was 25 years ago.
Attached is a photo of 4 questions I have.
1 The chassis frame has been drilled twice for the original brake cable feed through. When built - and a second set when sold on in 1932 when new bulkhead support frames were fitted. The car has 12" brakes fitted by Thompson and Taylor in 1934.
2 The chassis is drilled for the Front cowling of an unblown car. Then a pair of holes for attachment of the supercharger ( C0257 was the development car and ran in Germany blown).The outer pair of holes were drilled in 1965 to take a revised rear mounting for both a Marshal and the Powerplus, which I decided to fit with a three point mounting.
3 The fuel tank was clearly made incorrectly at first attempt. The base front and top are formed from a single sheet and folded into a U shape. The cut out for the rear axle access was too large so a plate was rivetted into the tank to give the correct angle and to provide a flat surface for the Hobson fuel contents sender. Why was this mistake repeated on the 44th car? What does an early tank from the first 14 cars look like?
4 When C0257 met its demise in Germany a photograph shows the car under tow with a smiling Count at the wheel. The radiator and bonnet top are twisted towards the offside. Is this the repair made to the damaged front peg location plate from this car?
I cannot find how to attach the photo so will send it as a new topic.
Allan B |
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mgmog
United Kingdom
467 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2023 : 11:12:40
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Added picture.
Allan if you do a reply to topic, not quick reply it gives the option to add a pic, hope this helps.
Rich Stott
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Foz
United Kingdom
770 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2023 : 12:26:10
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Hi Allan,
your fuel tank is not the only one with the alteration with the riveted patch! No number 7 on my trunnion box(s).. Lots of holes for brake cables! Expect J4 spec cables were used when 12" brakes fitted..... and the anchor plates then would not come through the bulkhead bracket.......lots of design "features" in a C-type!
FOZ |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
257 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2023 : 11:29:14
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Hello Barry and Duncan and those out there interested in MMM history.
Barry, thanks for your prompt reply which is very helpful to piece together the early history of C0294, something I should have done years ago, but it was only when the first edition of the Hawke History was in preparation, Jay Hall asked if I had 'nicked' the chassis files for the car knowing that it had been in our care since 1960s, and found by Mike Alison who had recently rescued the chassis files from the early days from the waste bin.
Your comment regarding the patch on the tank leads me to believe that this was a manufacturing error made and repeated when the slot was cut out on the first batch of tanks as flat sheets of 'leaded' steel. This error was found once bent as the insert if correctly made did not fit.
Your comment Barry, confirms what Dave Cooksey told me recently about the patches seen in some tanks. I presume that he noticed that on his car C0256. I know that he has subsequently made more C Type tanks than MG I am sure without this patch. The later tanks have a post 12/12 modification, where the tank is mounted in a locating frame on the chassis and held in place by cross straps. A mod introduced after the 12/12 where the centre stud of the three point mounting was stressed to the extent that it leaked during the race due to the rough surface of Brooklands. What was the other modification made to the mudguard stays which also gave trouble during the race?
This information points to the tank in C0294 being an early version, complete with patch, and original 12/12 mounting. It is still in the original rubber pads, the only repair we made was to the underside which was porous, and probably why the car was not used and left outside by Mr Ginzler in 1960.
I am also reminded that when Geoff Coles visited in 1964, he commented that the tank was not secured by straps and the sides were painted cream, so was it a works car? His view was that the last car built should be at least to the build standard of the August 1931 batch of cars and not have been sold without this modification. That coupled with the repair to the chassis frame stamped over with the number C 0294 C on the top of the O/S above near the trunnion box, lead us all those years ago to the view that the only M.G. owned car which could have donated this frame was the works and development car C0257. The chassis frame repair damage recorded during the complete strip down for Mike Ellman Brown the then owner, was consistent with one C Type, but this alive and well in South Africa.
Like all things in life we got on and enjoyed using the car and left the lack of chassis files or build records. The history of the car started with an article by L Seyd on his ownership of the car in 1934 Wimbledon. Subsequently the ownership of and on the road history has well authenticated by Jay Hall, Cat, David Potter and Hugh Dibb, supported by photographs of the car through its life on the track and road.
In the 1960s there was very little information on original C Types except Bob Hudson's car which was still in original condition. C0252 David Potter's car had a skimpy body and was owned by Duerden, who also owned the ex Moss R Type for a short time. The Beer C Type was very sadly in pieces in the window of the garage in Houghton, which was as close as I got to the car, bit like a child outside a sweet shop!
I was also interested to hear that your N/S trunnion box does not have a 7 stamped on the cover, as your car was I believe the second car built in the second batch in August 1931. I would be interested if the 7 appears on any other of the existing 12/12 cars such as C0260 owned by Hamish McNinch, and the ex Tieche car in Terry Holden's care. Others are either missing or abroad.
The two other Potter C Types should not have a 7 as they are both batch 2 cars, but only if my theory is correct.
We wait and see.
Hope others on the forum find this bit of historical search, interesting, gripping etc.
Allan B
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Foz
United Kingdom
770 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2023 : 23:24:45
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Hi Allan,
fuel tank is cradle fitted but has scars where the original 3 studs were cut off. Same in RX8306.
FOZ |
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