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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6305 Posts |
 Posted - 27/11/2023 : 18:18:52
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I was doing some reading about Austin Seven Ulsters recently and came upon an interesting article by Denis Jenkinson in the November 1980 issue of Motor Sport. The article was about the creation of Austin Seven specials in the style of the factory Ulster model (named after its success in the Ards TT in Ulster) and DSJ made the point that these couldn’t be called 'replicas' as they were not 'a similar work done by the original artist' but were built with glass fibre bodies by an enterprising private individual. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
To avoid the misuse of the term 'replica' DSJ’s proposal was that such cars should be called 'reproductions', namely built in the style of the factory cars, but built by someone else, just like, for example, reproduction furniture.
Is there merit in adopting this terminology? Should we refer to, for example, K3 reproductions to describe cars built in the style of K3s? The abbreviation 'K3 rep' could still be used as shorthand but we avoid the use of the contentious, incorrect and misleading term 'replica'.
Thoughts?
Simon J
J3437 |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 27/11/2023 18:19:44 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1071 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2023 : 18:45:09
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Hasn’t this topic been flogged to death in the past?
We can with the best intentions “agree” on all sorts of naming conventions but since there is no naming police and unscrupulous traders/owners will keep on using the K3 name in vain I see no use in this.
Onno "J,D,M" Könemann |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6305 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2023 : 18:55:56
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I was thinking more of the Register's practices. Referring to cars as 'built in the style of' is cumbersome to say the least but using 'Reproduction' as an acceptable term to convey pretty clearly what a car is would, to my mind provide clarity of nomenclature.
And were there ever Double Twelve Replicas? I think we should be told. 
Simon J
J3437 |
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Rainier
Netherlands
161 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2023 : 19:17:58
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'Built in the style of' perfectly reflects most of the outcomes in my opinion, whatever the intention of most builders. 'Reproduction' on the other hand implies that what is build is close to the original. It is a slippery slope to use a label that might imply a close representation of the original, where that connection is lost on first sight by an enthousiast.
I don't think we could ever agree on guidelines when something is a reproduction and when not, so stay clear from it I'd say.
Rainier |
Edited by - Rainier on 27/11/2023 19:18:54 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1071 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2023 : 21:05:21
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I think the registers position is perfectly clear and explained well in the guidelines that can be found under downloads.
Onno "J,D,M" Könemann |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6305 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 07:27:34
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I was hardly suggesting replacing six pages of guidelines - I was simply suggesting that 'reproduction' was perhaps a more suitable vernacular term than 'replica' (which I’m sure most of us use from time to time). If it was good enough for DSJ …!
Simon J
J3437 |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3266 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 09:44:51
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As Onno has observed this matter has been flogged to death.
The Triple-M Committee, at the time I was Secretary, came to the unanimous decision that “ built in the style of” was the best way to describe the cars.
It was the much missed Peter Green who proposed the wording.
George
Registrar F/L/N types |
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Westbury
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 09:56:40
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It has always puzzled me as to why people get so worked up about this subject!
Chris |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6305 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 10:14:43
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I’m curious. Does anyone really say to their mate “I like the look of that K1 built in the style of a K3”? Or do they say “I like the look of that K3 replica”? I was simply suggesting the alternative term of reproduction, as proposed by DSJ forty years ago, not as a formal definition but simply as a vernacular or colloquial term to describe such cars.
Simon J
J3437 |
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coracle
United Kingdom
2074 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 10:48:27
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| More likely they would exclaim; "wow, look at that one!" |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1748 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 16:19:47
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It was never the words that worried me.
it was the rules that encouraged the destruction of original cars.
My salonette is home, all original, all painted, and hopefully on the road next year.
Only taken 53 years, but getting there!
WTS
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Johnball
United Kingdom
101 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2023 : 20:17:11
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I agree with Westbury and Coracle comments. I have only been a member of the Triple M for three years and I am sure this subject has come up more than once. There is something odd about all this ? I am a member of other car clubs - Healey’s and Jaguar’s, but I never see so many people debating or discussing whether or not modified cars become replicas/copies etc etc.
It is all very well saying a prewar car should be rebuilt to the exact spec that it left the factory, but for example with my KN it was obviously very badly built in the beginning. I have a list of the substantial warranty claims for both mechanics and body from its first year as a University Motors demonstrator.
The first Lady owner also had several warranty claims, and sold it after a year !! By 1946, an owner was putting 16” wheels on it and supercharging, by the 1950’s the roof had been cut off to make a tourer. By the late 60’s it was pretty derelict. Luckily in the 1970’s Peter Green obtained it and decided to shorten the chassis and rebuild it into a K ——!!!! But he then sold it unfinished to Canada in1980 after he purchased his beautiful black Whitney Straight K3. He retained the reg MG3570 from my car for his K3. Eventually my car was retrieved from Canada in 1993 and a nearly 20 year build ensued on the car Peter Green had saved. I suspect that in the 1970’s there was little interest in a KN saloon thus the start of a ‘conversion’ So, is my car any less worthy because it’s history is so complicated. What I can say is that Andrew and Elizabeth Taylor have always been friendly to me and even allowed my car to be parked next to theirs at Brooklands, even though it is what I call a KN special and worth a tenth of their K3. Two other K3 owners have been very kind and spent time talking to me at Goodwood about their cars and giving me advice. Some other people in the MG world have been rude or more dismissive of my car. Certainly car owners of other makes have generally said ‘Wow’ when the see, hear and smell it.
I think this debate should have run its course, but fear it maybe an old guard or age demographic thing ??? |
Edited by - Johnball on 28/11/2023 20:29:10 |
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Richard Hardy
United Kingdom
2183 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2023 : 00:07:26
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This topic Simon has previously been flogged to death.
There seemed to be a general consensus that such cars could be described as a K3 styled KN or, a J4 styled J1 for example.
It was even decided by the mmm committee a few years ago that it would be appropriate for photos in the Yearbook publications would adopt this format. However, it never materialised. As such, the current descriptions in such publications can be highly confusing to new enthusiasts trying to understand the models.
I cannot personally see why the term ‘reproduction’ would be appropriate unless of course all the parts are a reproduction and especially the chassis. However, possibly cars on new chassis and with new engines and bodies are true reproductions.
Rich
Vintage MG Parts |
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Bathurst
Australia
22 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2023 : 03:13:28
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Where does the term "Recreation" fit into the discussions?
I know it's not an MG(!) but the Freikaiserwagen in its current c2000 guise with only some original engine parts is described as a recreation (should that be re-creation to make the point?). Its builder in this century conferred extensively with the designer and builder of the original car in 1936!
Rob
Rob |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6305 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2023 : 06:58:04
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Rich,
As I’ve given up the Yearbook editorship, now’s your chance to step up to the plate and show us all how to do it properly.
Simon J
J3437 |
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coracle
United Kingdom
2074 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2023 : 10:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnball
I think this debate should have run its course, but fear it maybe an old guard or age demographic thing ???
So perhaps OP is just an abbreviation of OAP?!! |
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