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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
 Posted - 01/11/2010 : 16:13:03
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Slumped in front of daytime T.V. today after a hard day, I was watching a programme called 'Flog It'.
A pleasant lady appeared with a cloth covered with BARC Brooklands badges, etc. all of which had belonged to her relative, H.N. Charles 'Chief designer of MG'.
Thankfully - or sadly, depending on one's viewpoint - they were not for sale and she also spoke of 'lots of photos and memorabilia at home'.
I take it that she is known to the Register's historians?
bob. |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2010 : 22:33:24
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| I have always been interested in Hubert(?)Charles who must have been a brilliant designer! The R-type was (I think) the first all-independent competition car in the world (the all-conquering German G.P. cars had De Dion rear axles) and its bhp/litre (not that Charles had much to do with the engine, or did he?) was easily the highest in the world until the early 1950's. Upon leaving Abingdon (then Oxford?) he went to another company (and relative obscurity)and passed away in the 1970's or 1980's? Has anything been written about his life? |
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John Haine
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2010 : 06:24:57
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| John, Many thanks. Mike Allison has also included some interesting stuff about H N Charles in "The Works MG's". In my previous thread I meant to add that the R-type's almost 200bhp/litre was only exceeded by the GP Alfas (type 158?) in about 1952 with two-stage supercharging! |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2010 : 18:46:58
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| HN Charles contributed an essay called "The Design of Small Racing Engines" to the original (1939, revised 1947) Lonsdale Library book "Motor Racing", which was edited by Earl Howe. Note that this essay is not in the later 1957 edition, edited by Sammy Davis. |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1722 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2010 : 22:23:53
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He also appears in the 1934/35 edition of the Proceedings of the Institute of Automobile Engineers (pages 500-538) where he was invited to submit an article which he entitled "Small Racing Cars".
Cheers
P |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 15:33:09
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Hubert Charles was a very talented engineer and the R type was indeed the first all independant suspension single seat racing car and I think the very first with wishbone and torsion bar springs.
There were a number of glaring errors in the design of the R type - most of which had already been adressed before the end of the racing shop in 35.
Un-equal length wishbones, stiffer springs, improved dampers and anti-roll bars are all extant drawings with 1935 dates.
However they never got the time or money that they deserved and the R type was never more than an under developed prototype to be honest.
Cecil Kimber stood on a lot of toes - which while he had Lord Nuffield's ear was fine for MG and Abingdon, but once his supporters lost their position and Nuffield had pulled back from his day to day involvement of the company too - Kimber always struggled to achieve what he wanted.
I am sure that they would have sorted the car fully by the end of the 36 season because HN Charles was a brilliant engineer - his work on variable pitch airscrews proves that point.
In truth however MG would never have got the development time because the upper management of the Morris organisation were always anti MG and following the amalgamation with Austin it only got worse for poor Abingdon.
My Dad and I met up with the lady mentioned by Bob Stingfield at Silverstone in 2008 and she had a number of lovely mementos that H N Charles had kept.
Photos of family life - the badges mentioned - a 1920's carburettor prototype probably for a Hotchkiss engine.
We urged her to keep the collection together and I am glad that it is not for sale.
The article on Small Racing Cars is an interesting read although it gives very little away.
The secret of most of the MG success pre-war was that the cars were screwed together well and as a result reliable.
Races were very long 100 to 500 miles was not un-common and the most certain way of finishing first was FINISH!
The other reason was that the MG was a good deal cheaper than other available Voiturette racers of the time - both to purchase but also to run.
As a result there were large numbers of MG cars taking part - often working together to burn out the opposition.
There was (with very few exceptions) no "Works" team as such - entrants such as George Eyston, Eddie Hall, Ron Horton, purchased their cars and paid the works to prepare them.
Works mechanics were paid by these entrants to attend meetings.
Larger events such as the TT or Mannin Beg the mechanics were paid by the works but the cars were still entered independantly. Nuvolari's entry in the 33 K3 was paid for by the Nuffield Organisation rather than by MG Car Company.
The problem was that the Nuffield Organisation disapproved of MG's racing exploits (and the overtime worked by the mechanics) and tried to stop them where they could.
H N Charles did have a number of perculiar engineering beliefs - he was ANTI hydraulic brakes (a legacy of Nuffield work in the 20's) and remained convinced that mechaincal brakes were the way forward.
However I remain convinced that he was a man before his time and had he been given the resources he needed - the R type would have been an even more ground breaking achievement.
HN Charles was a great engineer - what could he achieved alongside Duckworth, Chapman or Taunarac in the 1960's?
Regards David
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Mike the M
United Kingdom
481 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 21:23:47
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Hubert Noel Charles was born 22 November 1893 to Thomas and Constance Charles at Barnet in Herts.
He went to Highgate School and did a B Sc. at London University.
Joined the RFC/RAF in WW1 firstly in 56 Squadron as the Engineering Officer, and modified SE5a's. Later was the crash investigating officer at McCudden V.C.'s crash.
1919 - 1920 Technical Sales Dept. Zenith Carbs.
1924 Morris Motors.
1930 MG Car Co. - Chief Draughtsman and Chief Engineer - Racing Shop.
1938 - Chief Engineer Rotol Airscrews.
1941 - Austin as Development Engineer.
Clashed with Lenard Lord in 1946 and left Austins .
Consultant Engineer for Cam Gears nd Norton.
1953 Became partner in Manley & Charles.
Died 18 January 1982
Obit. Brooklands Gazette Vol 7 no.1 1982
A to Z of MG Jonathan Wood
Automobile H.N. Charles by Jonathan Wood in 2009 (?)
Mike Dalby |
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 11:45:34
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Hi all,
I have been away from the forum for a week or so, so missed this one.
H.N.Charles, or "HN" as he was generally known in the Factory pre-war was probably one of the cleverest engineers of his period. Mike Dalby has given his CV, but I was fortunate to meet him when I was learning about emission control and associated topics in 1966/7. He was working for a company called Associated Octel, in what was then Bletchley, and I understood he was head of research at the time. The A-O company was a forum at which the Motor Industry and Fuel producers were able to meet on "neutral" ground, and my time there was arranged by Syd Enever and Reg Jackson.
Although retcicent about his days at Abingdon ("History, old chap, and I don't look back!") but I did talk to him a little about the R-type, but it was obviously too painful to go into too much detail. "A wasted opportunity" was a phrase he used.
He fell out, so far as I can judge with Gerry Palmer, under whom he was initially put when he first went to Cowley, as well as Leonard Lord: but I think Lord left before Charles. Lord went to Austin for more money, as documented elsewhere, in 1936 or '37. However, Charles left the Nuffield Organisation also in 1936 or '37, I think initially finding a berth in Automotive Products, for whom he had worked before being taken on by Sir William Morris.
Charles and Kimber formed a friendship, which eventually resulted in HN doing design work on MG cars as early as 1928, although I think he was finally appointed Chief Engineer at MG in 1929, at about the same time as Reg Jackson started work: Jacko told me that they were "new boys together" working on the 18/80, and it was Charles enthusiasm for the Midget that got it off the ground.
And yes, David is right, we met Hilary in 2008, and she had no idea how important her great uncle had been to MG!
One last point: Nuvolari's entry in the TT in 1933 was paid for by Sir William Morris personally, and the fee was £500. Morris Motors were NOT involved!
Peter Browning and I are working on the second edition of "Works MG", which we hope will be published in May next year, and will be on sale at Silverstone 2011.
Best wishes,
Mike Allison |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1722 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 11:59:55
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When my parents lived in Devon the local pub was the Trout at Bickleigh. The landlord there was a man called Rook who divulged one day that he had built the gearbox of the K3 which won the 1933 Mille Miglia. Given the exaggerations which grow over time it is possibly best to say he "had been to do" with the winning gearbox... Sadly he could be drawn no further because of the same reluctance to talk about MGs of that period. My father knew one or two others who had been involved and this feeling seemed common. It was almost as if they felt a sense of betrayal at the withdrawal from competition. Certainly that was my father's interpretation.
Incidentally there was an F2 in Exeter at that time (70's) being done up by, if I recall, a Mr Gough, a seventy something man of consumate skill, hand painted and you would not know! Mrs Gough let him leave wings to dry on the sideboard! We used to meet in the Trout occasionally and compare notes.
Cheers
P
F1344 |
Edited by - PeterL on 07/11/2010 12:01:43 |
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