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Bill Abbott
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
 Posted - 11/01/2011 : 12:09:52
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Just a thought,most films in the 30's were "ortho" chromatic and not "PAN" Chromatic and so it is difficult to work out the various shades of grey. Blues would appear much lighter than reds which would appear much darker as the film was not sensitive to that area of the spectrum. When early locomtives were photographed, it was quite common for them to be painted especially for the occasion in Photo grey as the Plates then were not even Ortho Chromatic but only sensitive to the blue end of the spectrum.
Looking at early pictures of my duo toned blue NB the light blue looks almost white. So it can be very misleading - but makes for interesting detective work! Happy New Year to All |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6137 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2011 : 16:36:07
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| Agreed, Bill, it's the detective work that is half the fun. The ortho film would certainly make a difference to the blues and reds although possibly not the greens. I remember using it in my home darkroom in the early sixties to make copies of slide transparencies and the colour balance was never quite right. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 00:53:17
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To end the little digression - on the very best authority - the vehicles in the background are RUC Lancia Police Tenders.The odd things high up on either side of the bodies are spare wheels.
I should add, see "Armoured and Heavy Vehicles of The Royal Ulster Constabulary 1922-2001" by David Dunne
Sam
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Edited by - sam christie on 15/01/2011 20:54:12 |
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Blue M
United Kingdom
1472 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 08:45:25
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Frost sell a hood blackening treatment, I think called a "reviver". It works very well.
Regarding coloured hoods etc., I think you can trust the sales brochures.
Ian |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 10:20:09
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As a published vehicle historian for over forty years, I would advise against any enthusiast taking any maker's brochure or catalogue as anything but a starting point.
As has been mentioned, actual photographs were frequently used only as a basis for re-touching, the trade preferring prettified drawings to entice the buyer.
There are makers' brochures for vehicles which were never produced, some not even in prototype form, a collecting field on their own.
Perhaps the most common distortion was the depiction of tiny people drawn in order to make the car seem larger, as in the Connolly drawings for the 'P' Type. ( For the worst examples of this style, see any '50s Rootes Group catalogue. )
A wartime photo of my P-Type shows 'lighter' coloured brake drums; they were red in the 'fifties and were black in the '70s. The stylised drawing on the front of the 'P' catalogue shows them as being a different colour from the body - but also shows the underside of the wing as black and the front wheel as having only ten spokes! |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6137 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 12:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sam christie
To end the little digression - on the very best authority - the vehicles in the background are RUC Lancia Police Tenders.The odd things high up on either side of the bodies are spare wheels.
Sam
That many police tenders for a bike race? Those bikers must have needed "some handlin'" even in the 30s! |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 12:52:05
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Yes,"That many police tenders for a bike race".But of course in Ireland they could be Lancia short chassis armoured charabancs.
Although different films react differently to different colours I think it is fair to expect the same colours (of the same intensity in the same light)to look similar on the same frame of film.
The hood in the foreground left of the picture looks black but the body suggests an older car than the J2.This hood, even on the lightest areas, looks very much darker than the very darkest areas of the J2 tonneau.
This is a photo taken in Northern Ireland (not California) which sadly lacks the climate to achieve such a degree of fading in two years.In the Ulster climate I cannot picture anyone who uses his car most days and whose car has a hood not using his hood most of the time. The spare wheel suggests plenty of use but it is doubtful (though not impossible)that the tonneau was in daily use in such a notably wet chilly overcast climate.If the MG owner used his hood when it rained or when rain was likely (much of the time)why should the tonneau be so faded yet the hood on the other older looking car look used but unfaded?
If the tonneau is a green of the same shade as the dark green of the J2 body why does it look so very much lighter? Is green very prone to fading?Does the catalogue suggest different green tones for body and hood? It is fair to assume the grass is a lighter green than the J2 body but the tonneau looks much lighter than the grass. I reason that a dark green tonneau would have looked almost black in this picture.
Is a tan/brown/biege hood or tonneau option listed in the catalogue?
I believe most people were happy with the standard factory colour schemes but I have seen an M-type for example with a very convincing history dating back to the 1930's with a colour scheme which is non-standard.I imagine that a customer who liked a catalogue offering would have been in a pretty good position to insist on it or any other affordable possible variations.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 15/01/2011 18:42:51 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6137 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 17:37:06
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Indeed, Sam, it's strange. I think the first photo is probably not the best one to be using for comparison of colour shades as the car is two years old and while the tonneau is almost certainly the original one,and may have faded a little, we can't say for sure if the black hood on the car next to the J2 hasn't been recently replaced. But the second and third photos are more useful in that the car is obviously very new and yet the tonneau is still a light colour, at least in comparison to the coachwork. It clearly isn't, nor wasn't, black - just compare it with the dials of the speedometer and rev counter which are both black.
I know for sure that the car was ordered in a single colour of green, i.e. not duo tone, and my Dad never said anything about specifying the colour of the weather equipment although he did talk about ordering the Blumell wheel (17/6d extra as I recall) and the rev counter, both of which are clearly visible in the pictures. So I think we can assume that it came with the 'standard' weather equipment, whatever that might been. But it certainly wasn't black. And given the paucity of information about the supposed colour matched hoods, etc., it does make me inclined to think that it was probably fawn or beige. And while I agree that most of the time the hood would have been in use, especially since the tonneau was only a half one, unfortunately, while I have a few other photos of the car, none of them shows it with the hood up. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 20:47:40
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Does anyone have a period factory picture of a line up of J-types where variations in fabric are apparent?
Sam |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6137 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 22:50:21
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Sam,
A quick skim through some of the standard texts (McComb, Allison, etc.) shows a variety of J2s but none with what could reasonably be said to be black weather equipment (with the exception of one duo tone J3 on the Monte carlo Rally in 1933!), in contrast to photos of other models where it is clear that the hood or tonneau is almost certainly black. So it does seem plausible to assume that the J2s, if they didn't have the 'colour coded' hood, etc. (and there is little to suggest that this was the norm, despite what the catalogue said), may well have had fawn or beige hood, etc.
All academic, of course, since we can put whatever colour weather equipment we want on our cars, but an interesting diversion nonetheless. |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 15/01/2011 22:52:35 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3101 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2011 : 23:37:10
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Period pictures in the right context offer very credible evidence but so much depends on the quality of print.Compare these late M-type hood pictures -
They are both the very same photograph but the first is so dark that the hood appears black.The second print suggests a much lighter hood material on what still looks like a dark body.Look at the late interior detail in the second picture.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 15/01/2011 23:40:53 |
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Blue M
United Kingdom
1472 Posts |
Posted - 16/01/2011 : 08:03:12
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Sam, it's interesting that the hood frame which can be seen outlined, is similar the the J2 style and quite unlike the early M. It looks like I may have the right hood frame after all.
Cheers,
Ian |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6137 Posts |
Posted - 19/01/2011 : 21:29:13
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| I see that over on the Traders' Forum, Barry Walker has given us a definitive answer on this, i.e. yes, the colour coded weather equipment was used on the J2s. Hmmmm...do I fancy an all green car???? One for 'Does the Team Think' perhaps? |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 19/01/2011 21:32:37 |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2011 : 09:21:04
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| I have always understood that MG's in the J2 era had colour-coded hoods, etc, so that was all the more reason for me to paint my F2 black with black hood and tonneau! |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1723 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2011 : 11:35:58
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Mmmm but my F is black and its very old sidescreen, the only one left, has green piping which would have matched the original upholstry... So possibly a little bit of colourcoding...
Cheers
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