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Mike the M
United Kingdom
481 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2011 : 20:15:54
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With respect to Messrs. Allison.
1. I asked “if this could be the 'Morris Publicity' man", but I do not think it is Miles Thomas, as it does not look like him. (See his picture in his autobiography, “Out on a Wing”.)
2. I said that Robin Rainsford Jackson, (born Rutherglen, Glasgow 1903 ,) was only asked to do the testing at Brooklands. (See the references quoted in the article HE wrote in the Brooklands Society Gazette January 1978 The piece was subsequently reprinted in the Triple M year book 2009).
3. H. N. Charles must have rebuilt Shinio again! He was using it as a ‘runabout’ in February 1935. Please read his paper to the Institute of Automobile Engineers entitled "Small Racing Cars" in February 1935. It covers 38 pages , including the subsequent discussions at the conference.
4. The M type build records for 2M 1046 says “Special Ex”. This COULD, (or so Mike Hawke thought), be Shinio! The engine number of 2M 1046 is quoted as 1/19A and so could be very early. The build date for 2M 1046 was 18 February 1930. As an aside, the original engine number 19A was in TM 5050, and the Mike Hawke notes say there is a photo on the Brookland Society archives of G. P. Harvey Noble with the car. TM 5050 was later raced at Brooklands by C. Gerald H. Dunham, a garage propietor, of Bedfordshire, and who later raced Alvis.
5. The RX numbers were from 1927 to 1974, and some details are, I believe, at the Kithead Trust, Droitwich Spa, Worcestershire. Has anybody any connections there or could visit?
I trust that this will clear any confusion.
Mike Dalby |
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LewPalmer
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 13/09/2011 : 00:20:44
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TM5050, when we last heard of it, resided in the US on 2M0262. The last known owner has not been a member of the NAMMMR since the late 1990s.
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 13/09/2011 : 19:07:52
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Assuming TM5050 was on 2M0262 from new, that is the best candidate for Shinio. Jacko was always sure it was a very early car, and, with respect, Mike D, it was Wilson McComb (Not Mike Hawke) who first put up 1046 as the candidate, but Jacko always poo-poo'd the idea. I would suggest that Jacko would have had a better clue as to the car's identity, although his belief that it was broken up might explain why the earlier engine appeared in such a late car. The old engine could have been recycled.
While I have read the Charles paper, I find it difficult to believe that he would be driving an M-type in 1935: hell, he was the Chief Engineer of the Company!
Mike |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2012 : 14:14:56
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I have re-discovered around a dozen previously mis-filed photographs of M-Type RX 5971, plus a photocopied cutting in which it is described as 'used by H.S.Lingfield of 'The Light Car' in the 1930 Classic Trials'.
There is a note from Bob Clare saying that they have been scanned.
There is also a photo of M-Type OV 1054 taken in 1967. |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2012 : 21:59:27
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I am afraid that registration numbers are of little help with indentification of a car - in particular a "works demonstrator".
Most of these cars were of "uncertain history" the registration number plates being fitted to the next most available car.
The car actualy SOLD by the company with this plate could well have been yet another brand new car and indeed Shinio was broken up - but to be honest it was a long time ago and we have to careful not to re-invent history to suit a few photos 80 odd years later on dont we?
As late as the 60's my Dad and Peter Browning counted 7 MGB's with the registration plate 7 DBL and two of them were in a scrap heap.
Regards David |
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PeterL
United Kingdom
1723 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2012 : 22:56:31
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I think you might be a bit harsh here David. My car RX9981 was the works demonstrator F3, starting out life as an F1 but taken in hand by the factory to be fitted with the F3 goodies, and my father's car JB854 was the K type works demonstrator. Both cars survived the rigours of demonstrating and were eventually sold on. Both chassis files support their life through the time in factory hands and on to sale.
Maybe the more sporty cars were mucked about more...
Cheers
P |
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Oz34
United Kingdom
2538 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2012 : 23:09:51
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That's interesting Peter. If you look at the left hand K Type in "West Sussex Police Cars" she's JB 856. Makes me wonder even more if those Ks, rather long in the tooth by the purported 1939 of the photo, were on some sort of loan from the works. JB in Sussex?!
Dave |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2012 : 12:41:54
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Peter you are probably right - however a car as cheap as an M type would have been considered a bit of "a factory bike" and used by anyone who needed a vehicle.
I very much doubt though that anyone as senior as Hubert Charles would have had a 4 year old car from the bottom end of the value scale as a company car - unless of course there was nothing else.
Regards David
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2012 : 13:17:27
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On the contrary, photographs of historic vehicles with registration numbers are perhaps the most important guide to 'indentification' (sic), as DA puts it.
They are mostly the only link that there is, since the makers' written records for many makes are scarce and so many 'county' registration records have been wilfully destroyed.
The county record for RX 5971 could well still exist at the excellent Kithead Trust.
As for the bundle of photographs, they show an M-Type on the road and the various stages of a body rebuild in a non-original style, together with the builder and two drivers. The photo in the cutting is the contemporary competition one shown elsewhere on this thread.
The car is shown as being on the road in 1954. Almost all show the number, perhaps indicating that the then owner saw it as important identification. |
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tonym
United Kingdom
653 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2012 : 15:25:46
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TM5050
Taken in 1971 when it belonged to a chap called John Saville
Bet 'Mike the Man' does not have this in his collection
and Sam - I don't know what shade of cream this is, either !!!
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Edited by - tonym on 08/01/2012 15:31:16 |
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