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rbm
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2006 : 08:50:00
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anyone have any info on the Horton offset MG midget that took part in the 1932 500 mile race? A quick google has come up with very little, other than a small reference "and Horton his famous offset M.G. Midget...... Horton managed to stay ahead, until, Cobb averaging 112 m.p.h. in the Talbot, the little red M.G. was seen to be losing 10 sec. a lap to it. It was still highly dramatic. Horton was deliberately called into his pit, new plugs were put in, and he left in a desperate "do or die" manner. And it worked! The M.G.'s exhaust note became crisp for almost the first time that day and Horton went up to a lap speed of 107 m.p.h. Moreover, the Talbot oiled a plug, made up the speed lost during that stop, then oiled another plug. Horton at last gave the M.G. all it had. Eldridge and Eyston went post-haste to his pit to lend a hand or advise should the need arise, and, hardly before anyone realised it, the chequered flag flew - was it ever more welcome than at the conclusion of 500 miles round Brooklands? - and Horton came in the winner, in a 750-c.c. car, of the world's fastest long-distance race."
on the brooklands site.
Richard |
Edited by - rbm on 04/09/2006 08:54:28 |
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Bob Clare
United Kingdom
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 17:40:30
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Hello Richard,
The Horton single seater was K 3007 (Triple-M Register Number 1516. Whilst the original bodywork no longer exists I think, the chassis, engine, gearbox, rear axle were recovered from Signapore around 1971 and the car rebuilt.
The current owner is Jeremy Hawke, son of Mike Hawke and if you want, I can ask him to get in touch with you. Please e-mail me direct on 100570.2213@compuserve.com
Bob Clare
Registrar, Triple-M Register |
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 20:34:21
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Bob,
I nearly answered the question as you have done, until I re-read Richard's question which asks which Midget not Magnette and the year is 1932 not 1933/34. I do not know the answer to the question.
Peter. |
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rbm
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 09:50:14
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On another form I have been told that it was a rebodied C type, but still no nothing else about the car, and have only come across it on the Brooklands race report.
It would be good pictures of the car, as it seams a tad of a mystery.
Richard |
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Bob Clare
United Kingdom
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2006 : 20:09:10
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Whoops, serves me right for jumping to conclusions. The Horton C Type was C 0254 destroyed at Brooklands pre-war when Henry Clayton went over the banking. It did winn Brooklands 500 in '32.
Bob Clare |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 14:27:35
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There is a picture of this car in 'The Story of the MG Sports Car' by F. Wilson McComb, long out of print but since re-packaged as 'MG by McComb', possibly also out of print. I don't know if the pic appears in the later version. There is also very much smaller pic in a start scene on plate 84 of Bill Boddy's 'History of Brooklands', which I think was reprinted not too long ago, as well as one of Horton after winning the 500 mile race. It is certainly an odd looking conception, but it seems to have worked!
Graham |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 14:44:35
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Just found another pic amonst the retro pages of this web site... look through the jan '34 'Sports car', picture section... doesn't show the offset as well as the one in McComb's book though... nor the peculiar 'gills' behind the radiator...
Guess who's malingering today, then... |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 14:45:54
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| Sorry, that should have been july '34. Well, I am supposed to be ill! |
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MaGic_GV
United Kingdom
868 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 08:57:04
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At the risk of becoming boring, I will add one more - p.162 of 'Small car racing and Record Breaking', by our very own Mike Hawke. In this pic it looks very much like a stubby version of K3007, Horton's K3...
Graham |
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McEvoy
United Kingdom
252 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 18:29:32
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A little bit late but trawling thru old topics and seeing the comments re Horton's C type reminded me that there is a nice centre spread in the May 1937 copy of The Sports Car under the heading of "Almost Unrecognisable" - Strange disguises of MG racing cars among which is a picture of the C type with front wheels well off the ground at Brooklands. It is also noticable that the C in this picture like other MGs depicted at Brooklands in this spread are not fitted with front brakes. I have photos of R types at Brooklands without front brakes. I assume this lack of brakes was in the interests of weight saving and air resistance although if the picture of the C is typical the front wheels did not make contact with the bumpy concrete bankings very often thereby obviating the need for brakes, although I would guess that the Rs kept all four wheels on the ground, I found them very glued down when trying them at Lasham airfield a fairly rough peritrack in the 50/60s - Does anyone have any thoughts or inside knowledge on this brake removal.
I'm not sure if this car was eventually fitted with an R engine. I bought from Bill Short in the early '60s a SOHC R engine which he claimed to be the ex Horton engine but from what I remember I think the engine number was a P one - I must look up my notes. |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 08:59:20
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Mike Hawke is probably the best point of reference with regard to Ron Horton - he did a lot of research when rebuilding the K3.
Horton was small in stature and very short sighted, Henry Stone told me that he was fearless too.
He always paid his bills on time and was popular in the factory.
The offset car was built I think by Carbodies in Coventry (I should check that) and I think Horton was something to do with the company.
Either that or Jensen - help me out here?
The chassis was also pretty standard - although I think they removed the front brakes (this was pretty common on track cars).
The engine was I think initially prepared at Abingdon although later at R R Jacksons workshops at Brooklands.
There is certainly a picture of the offset C type at the factory alongside EX127.
The car was succesfull although fragile - the blower was I think larger than standard and the car prone to run on less than 4 cylinders unless it was kept on an open throttle.
Certainly the start of the 500 mile race would not have been good for the car - the race was started at intervals, the driver starting the engine and driving away as the flag was dropped.
The little blow MG engines would not have taken kindly to this and indeed the C type did not run terribly well untill Hortons pit stop.
Horton though did stop for more than just plugs - the car had to be re-fueled - he wnet on to stop another 3 times during the race.
Each time changing the plugs.
The Horton cars were incredible mostly for the their speed.
The C managed a 120 mph badge and the K3 a 130 mph (bronze and silver star I think they were called).
Jeremy can you get your Dad to help me out here?
Regards David |
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Ron Grant
United Kingdom
160 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 12:31:16
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The offset body on the Horton C type was made by Jenson.
There are many pictures in various books, of an overhead shot of the car which best shows off the "babana" effect, the radiator in the normal position, the driver in the normal position with the body , which was very narrow, "bending" around him. A side view of the car was far from pretty, it looked very "deep" from the top of the head fairing to the bottom of the body, and this certainly spoiled the asthetics of the whole thing. It was however very effective.
Just for interest, I have what I suspect could be the crank from the Horton engine, it is rather special, and the previous owner of my car,Charlie Duerden many years ago had told quite a few people, that he had either "the" engine out of the Horton C type or "parts" of the engine of the Horton C type.
This crank has oversize big ends, at 1.825" dia. with additional counterbalance weights riveted to the, as machined counterbalance weights, presumably to balance out the additional loading of the rather large big ends. With these additional weights in place, it would be impossble to grind the crank, as the grinding wheel would not be able to traverse the full length of the journal without comming into contact with the face of the additional weights.
The crank looks very much like a Lastall in it design, and obviously there are special rods to suit.
I have contacted many of the "old MM hands" but to date, no body has come across this crank and been able to offer any confirmation as to where it originated. Any ideas would be gratefully received.
Ron Grant |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 13:29:49
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As far as I know the Laystall crank did not become available till after the single seat C type had been written off - I am quite sure all of the C types had a bent wire crank for racing.
They would take a stock crank - crack test it and fit it with new rods.
The Laystall cranks appeared later on 33-34 for the J2.
I could be wrong.
The accident at Brooklands was very severe I doudt if anything was salvagable! |
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Cathelijne
Netherlands
744 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 19:18:37
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The owner of C 0254 at the time of the accident that involved Clayton and a certain banking in 1938, was one Mr R.C. Fleming.
In the Brooklands Society Gazette, volume 5, number 4, Autumn 1980, Patrick Gardner wrote: "Mr Fleming was able to confirm that after the accident he had the engine and gearbox removed, which were then sold, and the rest of the car was actually cut up in his garage and disposed of." ...
Regards,
Cathelijne Spoelstra
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JMH
United Kingdom
911 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 22:24:23
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I don't know - you go away for a few days & topics get interesting!
I can't add much to the C type story from what's already been posted. Even at the time some publications got Hortons' C & K types mixed up. I have a "Light Car" photo of the K being built at Jensens which is captioned as his C type!
David, Horton has often been described as small, but he wasn't. Even in his 80s he was still bigger than me! - no jokes please. Just how he managed to shoe-horn himself into the C type I don't know.
I don't know if the offset body was Hortons' idea, or somebody elses', but it works. In a world where "drag" was a black art, frontal area was everything & for both cars it's tiny. The concept reaches its' limitations at around 130 or so. We managed 132 at Millbrook, still pulling strongly, but hitting the 6000 limit (pain of death etc etc). Gardner managed 150 but was up against a brick wall. Given half decent areodynamics, the same engine then took him past 200 in EX135.
You do get a decent reduction in frontal area compared to sitting on top of the prop-shaft, but it does make for an awkward driving position.
JH
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 09:39:44
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Jeremy and others for helping to clear the air here.
I still have doubts on the counterbalanced crank though (I always thought they came later on - it is probably from a racing J engine) the J4 had a conterbalanced steel crank with larger journals and I suppose by 33 than most C types still racing by that time had one of these cranks fitted at about that time (another one for Hawke and Allison senior I guess)?
With regard to Mr Hortons stature - I was sure that Dad told me he was very slight and a lot shorter than me (tall I aint) although admittedly I think the passage of time and the little round glasses stand to make him look much smaller and slighter than maybe he was.
There you are Jezz - no short jokes!
I too re-read the information on the C type over the weekend (forgot to talk about it with Dad)and the engine and gearbox do seem to have survived (although I saw a picture and the survival of anything is frankly a miricle). The accident is mentioned in William Boddy's Brooklands History tome and it sounds terrifying.
Actually to a racer of "moderns" racing at Brooklands sounds pretty awfull too - but I guess they knew no better.
What these guys achieved was amazing and makes racing "modern" cars seem all the more inviting.
The thought of 107 mph laps of a bumpy concrete hellhole in a C type make my blood turn to ice (what am I saying - I of course I want to try it). |
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