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Chris Bucknell
Australia
107 Posts |
 Posted - 22/10/2011 : 02:55:13
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Hard to say whether this one will be of relevance to the group.
I have found a record of a Norman Robb entered in the 1947 inaugural race at the Curragh in Ireland. Apparently drove a V8 MG.
Now it is possible it could have been a MMM car or could have been a T-Type.
In any case does anyone know anything about this man and/or his car.
What chassis and waht engine of most interest.
Regards,
Chris |
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Mike Allison
United Kingdom
196 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2011 : 09:00:05
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Chris,
Most likely a VA MG. Until 1973 there was no V8 engine produced in the MG world.
I suppose the car might have had a V8 Ford engine, many of which were liberated at that sort of time from ex-army stuff, and such an engine MIGHT have found its way into an MG.
During the 60's there was a yank racing what I vaguely remember to be an MGA fitted with a Chrysler or Chevrolet engine, but no pur sang MG.
All the best,
Mike |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3238 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2011 : 11:47:10
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I believe K2015 was at one stage fitted with a Ford V8 engine - I will make some enquiries.
George |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2011 : 20:00:15
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In the 2004 Yearbook there is an article by Len Goff about K2015. The title is "Stumped - The Diary of a K2". Stump was the surname of the chap who installed a V8 Ford engine, in the '50s.
John R |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1487 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2011 : 11:13:31
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I doubt whether the Curragh car entered by Norman Robb was K2015 as Len Goff's research suggests that Mr Stump fitted the V8 engine (with Allard head) in 1950. I also see that Mr H Cocker entered a 3662cc engined M.G. at Tewin Water in June 1950 which might well be a Ford V8 jobby and could even be K2015 By the August 1950 Tewin meeting, he entered the car as a "3662cc HC" and the following year he had upgraded (!) to a 746cc Austin.
I also wonder whether Norman Robb was related to C E (Ernie) Robb who raced J4003 in Ireland in the late 30s and K3028 (with Bobby Baird) also in Ireland in the 40s and 50s.
Colin B. |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2011 : 15:57:37
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Just to throw some other possibilities into the ring: the only mention of Norman Robb in Billy McMaster's "History of Motor Sport in Ireland 1903-1969" is in connection with this mysterious V8 MG, which also disappears. The Curragh race was a handicap and Robb set the fastest overall speed in his heat at 55mph , but failed to overhaul Terry Hill's Morgan 4/4. Hill led the final too, but retired with engine trouble, leaving the win to Joe Flynn's MG TC. Robb finished fourth.
Ernie Robb, on the other hand, as Colin says, was active both before and after the war: in 1938 he comprehensively demolished the MG's engine at Limerick and in 1939 campaigned an Alvis-engined special which rejoiced in the name "Himmelwagen", winning the Leinster Trophy. McMaster records that he won a sprint at Phoenix Park in April 1949 driving what is described as a Mercury Special. As the only Mercury-badged engines up to that time were V8s: QED? |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 24/10/2011 : 09:41:08
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The Mercury and Ford engines were very similar although the Mercury engines of this time were all air cooled.
The most common engines around at this time were the Mercury engine from the US Naval speed launch - this was around 4.2 litres - and also the Ford "flathead" which was fitted to the military vehicles and also the Pilot at 3.7 litres (as stated by Colin) - these engines would have been quite readily available (and cheap too!) whereas spares for MMM engines were very scarce.
The only pre-war OHC V8 engine I know of was an Austin - MG hybrid fitted to the Harker Special.
At 1500 cc it had a special crankcase and two Austin 7 cylinder blocks mounted with a special crank.
The engine started with Austin heads but quickly grew a pair of MG J type cross flow OHC heads - these were chain driven off the nose of the crank and a large Zoller fed through an SU carb helped the breathing.
The car still runs in the VSCC and is always worth a look.
I think it very likely that the Mercury Special was not MG related - Bobby Baird had a great number of spares for K3028 and quite a large enough bank balance too to keep the K3 running without need of a Mercury engine.
K3028 remained quite original until recently when it lost its single seater body and gained a replica 2 seater body - although the owner has also kept the single seat body too.
It is important to realise how "NOT valuable" old racing cars used to be - until recently last years car was so undervalued that Enzo Ferrari used to have them destroyed.
That said a K3 was always much more expensive than any other MMM car because everyone knew that they had a cache.
In the immediate post war period the need to race outweighed the need to keep the cars original and many cars gained engines outside their original design envelope.
The Mercury special would have just as likely been a J2 or even a VA as anything else - because these would have been worth just a few quid and the cost of the modification very little more.
We will probably never know the identity of the special in question (or the Mercury special for that matter) because to invent the history to match the scant information available would do us no favours.
There are too many cars claiming to be what they are not because facts have been muddied to suit the available stock of parts.
Shame is that also of course the MMM 4 cylinder engine would be difficult to convert to run as a V8 - The J is closer than the P but the clylinders are badly spaced and on the P block the centre main gets in the way.
Never mind though but I am afraid Chris there is no record of a Holden V8 engined R type (RATS)!.
Regards David |
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Chris Bucknell
Australia
107 Posts |
Posted - 24/10/2011 : 10:27:09
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| But there is a R-Type that ran an 8 clinder and more on that latter.... |
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Cymber
United Kingdom
966 Posts |
Posted - 24/10/2011 : 20:42:37
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David,
My memory, although not infallible, suggests that you may be confusing the mercury V8 with the Steyr which was air cooled. I have always believed that the Mercury was just another version of the Ford and water cooled.
Maurice |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 25/10/2011 : 09:04:55
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Maurice
I have done some more digging and you are quite right the water cooled V8 was indeed a Ford "flathead" - re-badged.
The Steyr was a different animal altogether - Sidney Allard ran one of those in his hillclimb special.
The Steyr is very powerful but prone to overheating to the rearward cylinders (shades of an Ariel square 4) - chiefly I guess on the Allard because it was using higher revs than the engine was really developed for (the engine was designed for military use in tanks and agricultural use in staionary engines).
The Mercury marine V8 most likely used by Ernie Robb would have been a water cooled one though - the air cooled engines were developed from the Steyr and rare.
I guess from reading between the lines that Mercury had the same problems with the air cooled V8 as Sidney Allard - at higher speeds the engine had a reputation for unreliability.
Mercury were trying to become a serious manufacturer and to break away from using stock Ford parts, however they eventually became part of Ford.
Mercury Marine was always kept independant and continued to develop their own products - eventually developing the V8 high revving outboard engine used in hydroplane racing - these are 2 strokes though.
Chris
The R type that ran a V8 - not heard of this and I am convinced that the VSCC would dismiss any claims of its viability for racing now!
Shame really as the chassis was never really exploited by a power unit large enough to make full use of it.
To be honest the R type was designed about 30 years ahead of its time too - none of the pre-war drivers were able to understand how to use the independant suspension and most concentrated on trying to make it behave as if fitted with beam axles.
H N Charles had plans to improve the damping and suspension operation and a chassis with un-equal length wishbones and different dampers was built in the late summer of 1935.
Sadly this co-incided with the "Bean Counters" discovery of a non sanctioned engine inn the racing shop and led to the closure of racing activities forthwith and the eventual loss to the MG Car Company of Cecil Kimber.
The loss was even worse because the engine was pretty much useless anyway and was in the process of being returned.
H N Charles went on to develop the variable pitch airscrew for Rotol and his brilliance as an engineer is probably much forgotten.
The improved design for the R type (codenamed RB) was a huge step forward and would have answered a lot of the drivers issues with the RA chassis.
The equal length wishbones and lack of anti-roll, anti dive and decent damper made the RA handling rather odd.
The car would porpoise and the lean angles were extreme in coparison to a beam axle car.
The RB has larger more powerfull dampers with unequal length wish bones to counteract the porpoising and also an early attempt at antiroll bars to counter the lean angles.
Who knows what MG would have managed with the R type had they been allowed freedom - the 6 cylinder S type is I think probably a myth but you never know.
Regards David |
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Cymber
United Kingdom
966 Posts |
Posted - 25/10/2011 : 12:55:53
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David,
You mentioned the non sanctioned engine of 1935. I for one have not previously heard of this so would be grateful for more information.
Maurice, |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2011 : 18:24:44
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Maurice
The engine was a twin OHC Blackburn 6 cylinder engine - it was an un-mitigated DISASTER!
It did not (as promised it would) fit the MG chassis frame (coventional or independant suspension), it was longer, wider and required a deeper sump than promised.
It produced little power and was terribly un-reliable.
A Frazer Nash officianado told my father and I that it was a terrible engine in a Nash and he had no reason to expect any different of the engine when fitted to anything else (a damming enditement)!
The story is covered in the history books.
Regards David |
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Mike the M
United Kingdom
481 Posts |
Posted - 27/10/2011 : 23:30:32
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Two questions:-
1 The Harker Special which had two Austin engines engines geared together to form a 1 1/2 litre engine all mounted in an Austin chassis. This was crashed, and was rebuilt using a Lombard chassis which had extra weight. Harker modified the engine using two MG Midget engines and drove the overhead camshafts with chains. Does this become the first MG V8?
2 Where does one obtain a copy of the McMasters "history of Motor Sport in Ireland" book? The only book by a McMasters in Abe books is one on Beer!
Mike Dalby |
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rodb
New Zealand
260 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2011 : 08:06:25
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I have this picture of a Harker engine. Do not know where I got it but it was many years ago.
RodB NZ |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2011 : 08:21:22
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Mike - the Harker does not really count as an MG engine - because it err isnt an MG engine!
It does count as an interesting piece of motor racing history which involves MG loosely though I guess and it is worth a mention when discussing V8 engines.
Rod - nice picture of the Harkers engine - I think it used to appear on the Reese Brothers web site (they rebuilt the car).
Havent seen the car for a few years but I think it is still about.
Regards David |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2011 : 10:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike the M
2 Where does one obtain a copy of the McMasters "history of Motor Sport in Ireland" book? The only book by a McMasters in Abe books is one on Beer!
Mike Dalby
It's very, very, very rare! It was published by Century Newspapers of Belfast in 1970: original cover price 7/6. It's an 88 page quarto magazine-style paperback - some of which is advertising - and apart from "Green Dust" by Brendan Lynch, which is more comprehensive but stops at 1939, it's the only general history of Irish motor sport.
There is currently one copy for sale on Amazon Marketplace at £15.50 - just over half what I paid for mine  |
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