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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
 Posted - 31/08/2007 : 12:40:59
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Do we need a set of Eligibility rules as in the VSCC ?
Agreed.
Whereas modding a MMM was normal when the cars were current, should preservation of those remaining be paramount ?
Safety additions such as flashing indicators must always be allowed, but there is a faction within the movement, both here and abroad, who gravitate towards the 'boy-racer' image, installing non-original engines and gearboxes, removing swept wings and the like.
Perhaps it is time for the Register to think about this when classifying cars.
Bob. (MMM since 1961, but only an owner when circumstances permitted.)
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 13:06:08
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Mike
I am a mewcomer to MMM but am like you interested in preserving the originality of our cars. I have a PA which has a VSCC buff form class - Standard. So I am generally guided by the VSCC eligibility rules which I believe to be a good compromise between originality and practicality. For Ignition items it reads as follows, for all classes of car: "Any pre-war ignition system is allowed. No solid state electronic ignition or other engine management system is allowed on any pre 1941 car." I conclude that a Bosch distributor would be allowed.
From a personal point of view I would prefer the Lucas distributor but where do I find a new or good-as-new DK4A, at a reasonable price? From my enquiries thus far a new 009 is the only economic solution to my rather worn distributor, which is part DJ4A and part DK4A.
Peter |
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Mike
United Kingdom
229 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 14:26:23
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Peter,
I take your point about worn distributors but there is always a fix, in the MG18/80 group a good few "as per original parts" have been re manufactured and with only 40 cars surviving a production run is rather limited unlike MMM cars.
Whilst we are alive we remain the custodians of English motoring history,in this case MG`s so we should treat them no differant then works of art, antiques or historic buildings.
Where would we have been if the MMM committee members of the 60`s had not insisted on "Maintaining the Breed"? a lot of our cars would still be with their FORD side valve engines today.
The current committee needs to draw a line in the sand before things get out of control, if it is not already too late.
M ELLIS |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 17:39:32
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Mike,
I asked the question about the Bosch distributor because I had lost the actual Lucas one from my engine. Try as I might, for several years I never found another useable original to replace it. As it happened the very one which came from my car has recently turned up again -a really good one and absolutely correct.
Had I not found my original, would it really have served "maintaining the breed" better to have left my car in the garage ? It has already been off the road for nearly half a century.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 31/08/2007 18:01:49 |
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Mike
United Kingdom
229 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 18:08:06
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Sam,
I understand fully and you are quite correct in getting the car back into use, my concern is that all these mods will become the norm and as I have a few brand new divers helmet L type and N type 6 cylinder side entry dizzy caps they could become worthless if this trend continues!
M ELLIS |
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Gerhard Maier
Germany
881 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 19:20:39
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Thank you Mike, well done !!
Your words concerning "Maintaining the Breed" and originality could easily have come from my typewriter, if only my English would not more or less result from reading Workshop Manuals.
If we have the privilege to enjoy a Triple-M MG, than we should use them with all positives and negatives, and also we should have sufficient responsibility to maintain the heritage.
Gerhard |
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 20:47:02
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Originality?
If I buy an "009" distributor it will not be made by Bosch but by some company in Argentina which produces repro parts. It will have centrifugal weights controlled by springs, points, condenser, rotor and cap. Exactly the same components and functionality as the original distributor but made by company X rather than Lucas.
Are all the components on your car manufacturered by the same company as the one which made the original parts? Is every component to precisely the same spec? I guess not.
If anyone can produce a DK4A in excellent nick I will be more than happy to buy it. But Sam's post would suggest that it is not likely to happen. So I cannot see any alternative but to buy an 009 or continue to drive my car with a rather worn and inefficient distributor, which is non standard anyway as it is part DJ4A, part DK4A.
If this is the thin end of the wedge then I would suggest that your halfshafts made of upgraded spec material are also part of the thin end.
Mike - I think that you and I are on the same page over originality. I believe that we should maintain cars as original so far as we possibly can. But for some things we have little option. So I guess that we will have to agree to disagree as to which side of the line an 009 distributor lies. I would however suggest that you get your dizzy caps on the 'For sale' page as soon as possible!
Peter |
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Mike
United Kingdom
229 Posts |
Posted - 31/08/2007 : 23:39:47
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Peter,
True my half shafts are to higher spec but do look exactly as per original. However my fear is that in time you will open the bonnet and there will be a VW steering box, Bosch dizzy with a nice orange dizzy cap, an alternator so that you produce a bit more current to feed the SAT/NAV unit. It then will be only a matter of time when an ECU arrives in the bay for better performance.
I drive a 1972 Midget as well as my MMM cars but we now have Midgets with modern Rover engines coupled to a five speed box, I thought that the fun was to appreciate the cars as they were built. If you wanted a modern Rover engine and five speed box then go out and buy a Chinese MGTF not destroy our motoring heritage.
My 72 midget is 35 years old the same age as my P type when I aquired it in 1970. They are both a delight to drive but of course so different.
M ELLIS |
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nipedroso
Portugal
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2007 : 19:45:25
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Mike,
I could not be more in agreement with you. For over 40 years I have driven and owned all sorts of cars and motorcycles, dating in both cases from the beginning of motoring (1898) to the present, among them 12 MG's, and have always found that the pleasure of it was to feel what it was like with the contemporary technical solutions and often in the actual as near as possible ambient conditions of the time.
When there is no aparent solution to solve a "get it back on the road again problem", fine, do what you can.
Beyond that maybe it would probably be more interesting and rewarding to go out and buy the "chinese product", which incidentally I feel will be better than nothing.
Norberto Pedroso, from Portugal, PA 1741
quote:
Originally posted by Mike
Peter,
True my half shafts are to higher spec but do look exactly as per original. However my fear is that in time you will open the bonnet and there will be a VW steering box, Bosch dizzy with a nice orange dizzy cap, an alternator so that you produce a bit more current to feed the SAT/NAV unit. It then will be only a matter of time when an ECU arrives in the bay for better performance.
I drive a 1972 Midget as well as my MMM cars but we now have Midgets with modern Rover engines coupled to a five speed box, I thought that the fun was to appreciate the cars as they were built. If you wanted a modern Rover engine and five speed box then go out and buy a Chinese MGTF not destroy our motoring heritage.
My 72 midget is 35 years old the same age as my P type when I aquired it in 1970. They are both a delight to drive but of course so different.
M ELLIS
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3115 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 11:14:01
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Mike,
Your suggestion that things should look the same but can be improved inside-
"True my half shafts are to higher spec but do look exactly as per original."
is a really useful point. Some people I understand even use modern crankshafts and rods, aluminium engine blocks (made authentic by a coat of paint)and post war oil seals - the original oil stain on the radiator can be simulated.
I have discovered a firm which offers to convert your original distributor to electronic ignition but all contained under the distributor cap!The only give away is that two wires go to the side of the distributor rather than one but these can be contained in one sleeve.
I wonder if VW do an engine which will fit inside an MG crank case.
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 02/09/2007 11:42:32 |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1579 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 12:12:39
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Food for thought............ prewar combustion technology and the fuels available when Triple-M cars were made were significantly inferior those available now, so the original ignition timing and advance characteristics and fueling rates could with advantage be changed using more modern technology 'to improve the breed', providing this is done in a sympathetic way.
The task to go the whole hog to re-engineer the whole Triple-M combustion technology would be inappropriate and beyond the means of the average enthusiast, but taking advantage of more modern technology for those more unreliable features of the original product, I suggest, make good sense.
So the more obvious/easier things like improving the ignition system - e.g. modern narrow nose platinum-tiped sparking plugs (don't foul so readily) and improved/more consistent spark timing from newer types of distributor - are worthy considerations.
Further improvements to starting, idling, acceleration, fuel economy, and emissions would come from a mapped electronic ignition system such as that described in the Feb 2006 edition of the MG Enthusiast for an MGB, but this might be a step to far.....but you never know, legislation might force emission improvements for older cars to permit them to stay on the road!
A further heretical thought......if I were fuel injection design engineer I would investigate the feasibility to produce a twin point injection system which could be hidden in a pair of SU carburettors, which would, with the forementioned allow a fully mapped fuelling and ignition engine management system to fully optimise performance, economy and emissions.
Doubtless the this will further stoke the fires under the die-hards!
Bruce. |
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Mike
United Kingdom
229 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 16:43:29
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I have just returned from a classic car show and found and bought a brand new DK4A distributor and could have purchased another new one off the internet, I rest my case.
To my learned friend Bruce Sutherland who until recent retirement at ROLLS ROYCE CREWE was a product improvement manager please do not go down the road of product improvement on your PB, having the body clad in stainless steel will out last you and all the known oil reserves.
The fuel injection will only get you in the PB to the supermarket a little quicker.
Against all these go faster goodies, overdrive etc is there anyone in MMM circles that does more then 3500 miles a year in their car?
M ELLIS |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 17:28:43
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Bruce. Diehard, in the sense in which you are using it, is rather a pejorative term.
I have a VW Golf which has all of the modern gizmos which you mention and a blower as well: it is a fast and efficient machine. I have my MG for a number of reasons which might, if given here, bore others. One of those is that it is a 'thirties car, a vehicle era which I admire.
It isn't anything that the Golf is, has almost nothing that the Golf has and presents a challenge every time I drive it. I could modify it to be more like the Golf but then a) it wouldn't be a 'thirties car and b) as a very original sports car of that era, of which I am merely a temporary custodian, it might be the one for the museum when oil use is prohibited.
I ride 'thirties Velorizontal and Velocar recumbent cycles. These could easily be made easier to ride by being 'upgraded' with alloy components, more gears, etc., in the manner of your - fortunately few - soulmates in the cycle club to which I belong who, while pretending to ride 'vintage lightweights', merely ride modern cycles with old frames.
Keeping it original should be the default position for any Kimber-car enthusiast, surely ?
Best Wishes, Bob.
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Peter Scott
United Kingdom
1240 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 18:38:40
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Mike
If you learn of other such items being available and you do not wish to purcchase yourself, it would be nice if you were to post the sellers details on this forum so that another memeber of the register might have the opportunity to purchase.
Peter |
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Bruce Sutherland
United Kingdom
1579 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 18:41:21
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Gentlemen, my thoughts were offered in the spirit of informed debate so I'm unable to respond to emotional outbursts!
I have suggested that future emissions legislation may force the issue if we want to keep our cherised Triple-M's on the road, please let's have some well-reasoned discussion about what technical actions/alternatives we could develop should this come to pass.
I believe some of our European contributors to this forum have already alluded to the possibility of future legislation restricting/preventing the use of old cars.
Bruce. |
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